Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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Just_a_fan
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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rscsr wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:12 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:37 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:11 am
The V10's were the best sound of F1 imo. V12 just about there too.
The V8 exhaust blown diffuser was aurally interesting.
I doubt many people could really tell the difference between a V12 and V10 F1 engine. Both had a high pitch and both were painfully loud when heard trackside. And many probably wouldn't know the Ford V8 in Michael's Benetton from the Renault V10 in Hill's Williams. Or between the Honda V12 in Senna's MP4/7A and the Renault V10 in Mansell's FW14B.

All great engines and all equally iconic because, between them, they all defined the sound of a period in F1 that many, now middle-aged, fans first tasted the sport.
F1 engines are certainly not painful and don't feel too loud imho. The GT engines are way more painful. At least for me. It always was quite the relief when the Porsche or Corvettes stopped and the Formula cars started again.
Really? I'm surprised. I found the V10s and V8 F1 engines to be too loud really. And then something like the DFV was just aggressive noise - not even that pleasant.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:45 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:37 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:11 am
The V10's were the best sound of F1 imo. V12 just about there too.
The V8 exhaust blown diffuser was aurally interesting.
I doubt many people could really tell the difference between a V12 and V10 F1 engine.
Of course they can, 5/10 cylinder piston engines have unique harmonics compared to 2/4/8 cylinders or 3/6/12 cylinders.



The analogous engine layouts have similar dominant orders to the acoustics. :)

"Take rpm (in Hz) * number of cylinders / 2 (as it's four-stroke, half the cylinders fire per revolution), >>>>> dominant orders of one (say the 10 cylinder) will be similar to the first overtone of the dominant order of the other (say 5 cylinder) and so on" ...and the 5/10 cylinder will have different dominant orders and overtones to a 4 or 8 cylinder with a flatplane crank, and different again to a 3, 6 or 12 cylinder engine.
I'm not talking about people like us who have a more technical interest. I'm talking about the masses that just turn up to cheer on their team / driver and for whom the "technical" features in F1 coverage are written.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Gillian
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:45 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:37 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:11 am
The V10's were the best sound of F1 imo. V12 just about there too.
The V8 exhaust blown diffuser was aurally interesting.
I doubt many people could really tell the difference between a V12 and V10 F1 engine.
Of course they can, 5/10 cylinder piston engines have unique harmonics compared to 2/4/8 cylinders or 3/6/12 cylinders.



The analogous engine layouts have similar dominant orders to the acoustics. :)

"Take rpm (in Hz) * number of cylinders / 2 (as it's four-stroke, half the cylinders fire per revolution), >>>>> dominant orders of one (say the 10 cylinder) will be similar to the first overtone of the dominant order of the other (say 5 cylinder) and so on" ...and the 5/10 cylinder will have different dominant orders and overtones to a 4 or 8 cylinder with a flatplane crank, and different again to a 3, 6 or 12 cylinder engine.
It's funny because that video also shows cylinder count is just a small(ish) part of the sound. I mean, just put equal length headers on an Impreza or a flat plane crank in a Mustang... Totally different sound just like that. Even the flywheel has impact to some extent, TB's etc.

No turbo, more revs and current 6 cylinders would sound a lot better. But what's the point in that of course.

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vorticism
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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The phasing or pulse spacing changes but not the frequency in terms of Hz. The pitch of the pulses I assume is a factor of tubing volume and shape.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:02 pm
I'm surprised. I found the V10s and V8 F1 engines to be too loud really. And then something like the DFV was just aggressive noise - not even that pleasant.
Did you bring ear muffs / ear plugs? No one would go to top fuel drag racing without ear defenders, as everyone knows they are painfully loud, why should F1 be different?

If the goal was quiet cars that could easily have been achieved by fitting mufflers to the V10 or V8 engines. They were not required in the regulations, so it would seems silencing the cars was not the FIA's goal and both the FIA and event organisers had no issue with the noise levels... Even for downtown street races, the technical regulations did not specify a maximum driveby noise level, at a prescribed distance, for Grand Prix cars AFAIK.

Don't forget some circuits have very large runoffs between the race track and grandstand too, so whether you are on the main straight right next to the track or at a corner far away from the track behind a huge runoff area will affect noise level at the listener considerably.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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Gillian wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:22 pm
just put ... a flat plane crank in a Mustang... Totally different sound just like that.
That's true:



The Shelby GT350 has a flat plane crank (albeit with an unusual configuration and firing order), but like all Mustangs, it also comes standard with an unequal length header so it still sounds a little bit uneven. Fitting an equal length header, however, makes it a lot more like a Ferrari. :D

No turbo, more revs and current 6 cylinders would sound a lot better. But what's the point in that of course.
The stated goal for the 2026 regulations is 50% ICE power and 50% electric power, so removing the turbochargers from the 1.6L V6s would be the perfect way to reduce ICE output to around 500hp [1.6L/2.4L * 750hp ~ 500hp @ 18,000rpm]. The MGU-H is already confirmed as being abolished, so removing the turbocharger is not going to further remove any electrical harvesting.



F3 is still louder and more visceral than F1 (and F2) to this day... Most curious, but this one simple trick could restore the bark to the F1 tone. :)

They may actually use more fuel than the old turbo hybrid engines, but assuming it's carbon-neutral synthetic fuel then as PlatinumZealot originally surmises, "who cares!" :)

I'm guessing even with front axle harvesting, they are not going to be able to sustain 500hp electric during the Grand Prix (depending on battery size), so they would have a lower power output during the Grand Prix but have the full 1000hp during qualifying.

johnny comelately
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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vorticism wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:19 am
The phasing or pulse spacing changes but not the frequency in terms of Hz. The pitch of the pulses I assume is a factor of tubing volume and shape.
and EVO, compression, ignition timing and lambda

johnny comelately
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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Just swinging back to the topic...
This guy is quite good and his video explains some facts about lead and politics which are new to me.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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well .....
there's no such thing as 100 Octane AvGas - it's 100/130 - a British invention loathed by the US oil industry
though the US oil industry in WW2 made to GB order huge amounts of GB-spec AvGas

until c.1945 US-made US spec 100 Octane aviation gasoline didn't have enough aromatics to pass the 100/130 tests
(as of course 100 Octane motor fuel eg 1960s would be about 100/110 not 100/130)
right now the AvGas they produce is 103/130 to be compliant with 100/130
they might prefer (as ever) to end this 'giveaway' and eg to remove some TEL ('lead') and so produce 100/125

100/130 AvGas aka 100L became a world standard in 1945 but thereafter engines needing it started to disappear
leaving gasoline to be used only by 'light' type (NA) engines - but these had been designed for eg 80/87 AvGas
80/87 was withdrawn forcing all these engines to use ('highly-leaded') 100/130 aka 100L (coloured green)
c.1970 fuel companies lowered the 'lead' content and since then 100/130 has been blue 100LL (TEL 2.01 ml/gal US)
similarly there is now even an (unleaded) 100UL coloured orange/yellow

ASTM (1945) D910 motor octane & D909 supercharge rich mean 100L 100LL and 100UL meet 100/130
(starting in 1945) 100L THEN 100LL PLUS NOW 100UL DENOTE ACCEPTED SUBSTITUTES for ICAO 100/130
further 100UL has been shown to behave well in 'heavy aircraft' (DC-6 ?) engines at takeoff conditions
(also now (unleaded) there's 94UL (ASTM D7547) - gets 99 MON ?)

Swift unleaded c.1997 was c.70% (meta ?) xylene and tested over 103/160 from 100% to 60/40 mix with 100LL
(unleaded is no mystery as AROMATICS (eg xylenes) give LITTLE OR NO RESPONSE to TEL)

btw 1 ....
there was purple 115/145 AvGas and brown 108/135 (115/145 fuel but with 100/130 lead content)
1958-60 Formula 1 went 'pump petrol' ie used AvGas - but which AvGas maybe wasn't clearly 100/130 as posterity says
also organometallic octane boosters other than TEL exist (but they're not made by the Associated Octel monopoly ?)

btw 2 .....
the nice man in the video was wrong about dibromide scavenger
after 70s energy crisis/OPEC cheap dichloride scavenger was used - corroding exhaust systems with hydrochloric acid
he was right about the demise of MoGas for aviation due to the alcoholisation of motor fuel
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:09 am, edited 8 times in total.

johnny comelately
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:54 pm
well .....
there's no such thing as 100 Octane AvGas - it's 100/130 (a British invention loathed by the US industry)

right now they produce 103/130 and sell it as compliant with 100/130 (as it is of course)
they would prefer (as ever) to remove some TEL ('lead') and so produce 100/125

100/130 AvGas aka 100L became a world standard in 1945 but then engines needing it started to disappear
leaving gasoline to be used only by 'light' type (NA) engines - but these had been designed for eg 80/87 AvGas
80/87 was withdrawn forcing all these engines to use ('highly-leaded') 100/130 aka 100L (coloured green)
c.1970 the fuel companies voluntarily lowered the 'lead' content a bit and ever since 100/130 has been blue 100LL
similarly there is now even a 100/130 (100ULL) coloured (yellow ?) that has a bit less lead than 100LL

but missing is eg a 100/112 'UULL' (or a 92/100 lead-free - but then catalysts would be demanded by groundhogs)

btw 1 ....
there was 115/145 AvGas and 108/135 (this was 115/145 but with 100/130 lead content)
1958-60 Formula 1 went 'pump petrol' ie used AvGas - but which AvGas maybe wasn't clearly 100/130 as posterity says
organometallic octane boosters other than TEL do exist (but they're not made by the Associated Octel monopoly ?)

btw 2 .....
the nice man in the video was wrong about dibromide scavenger
after 70s energy crisis/OPEC cheap dichloride scavenger was used - corroding exhaust systems with hydrochloric acid
he was right about the demise of MoGas for aviation due to the alcoholisation
Yea but he's got pictures :wink:

Gillian
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:37 am
Gillian wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:22 pm
just put ... a flat plane crank in a Mustang... Totally different sound just like that.
That's true:



The Shelby GT350 has a flat plane crank (albeit with an unusual configuration and firing order), but like all Mustangs, it also comes standard with an unequal length header so it still sounds a little bit uneven. Fitting an equal length header, however, makes it a lot more like a Ferrari. :D

No turbo, more revs and current 6 cylinders would sound a lot better. But what's the point in that of course.
The stated goal for the 2026 regulations is 50% ICE power and 50% electric power, so removing the turbochargers from the 1.6L V6s would be the perfect way to reduce ICE output to around 500hp [1.6L/2.4L * 750hp ~ 500hp @ 18,000rpm]. The MGU-H is already confirmed as being abolished, so removing the turbocharger is not going to further remove any electrical harvesting.



F3 is still louder and more visceral than F1 (and F2) to this day... Most curious, but this one simple trick could restore the bark to the F1 tone. :)

They may actually use more fuel than the old turbo hybrid engines, but assuming it's carbon-neutral synthetic fuel then as PlatinumZealot originally surmises, "who cares!" :)

I'm guessing even with front axle harvesting, they are not going to be able to sustain 500hp electric during the Grand Prix (depending on battery size), so they would have a lower power output during the Grand Prix but have the full 1000hp during qualifying.
Would that matter though? They're hardly using full power during the race now anyway, just under fuelling, shortshifting, lift and coast etc.

That's also why I wonder if ditching the turbo would have the desired effect. Reading this thread it seems people just miss loud high pitched engine sound, regardless what cylinder count etc. Removing the turbo will make it louder, but you're not going to get high pitched screaming sound if they're still shifting early, like a couple 1000 rpm before redline.

And with so much electrical power you could run extremely lean, more advanced ignition timings etc for a bit more top end when you need it. Then don't use it because fuel saving. It won't sound all to good during a race probably... Maybe during qualifying like you say. But I'm no expert, there are more knowledgeable people here.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:14 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:00 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:42 pm


V10s would require at least twice the amount of fuel, thus requiring a return to refueling. Yay!!! We get to watch the fastest racecars sitting stationary for 10s twice a race. How exciting!!! And the occasional fireworks show.
Remember. They "only" needed 160kg for the whole race because they were so much lighter.
I think if you added TJI direct injection and today's low friction designs plus KERS they might even need less than 100kg of fuel!
Direct injection doesn't work well past 12k rpm. KERs must be powered, mguh is the perfect combo to KERS, but it turns the wasted engine noise into electrical power, you noise worshippers don't like that. The low friction is because you have 6 pistons instead of 10, and those 6 pistons are moving around 11k rpm rather than 18k rpm.

There is never a way that v10 will use less fuel than current PU, unless it is making drastically less power. Again, it must be repeated, in 1988 the 1.5L turbo cars were both fuel(195L) and boost(2.5 bars) limited against 3.5L unlimited engines and still the turbo cars won every single race. Asking for v10s back is like asking for carburation back, it is absurd and backwards, just for the sake of noise.
If the new electrification rules for 2026 are said to reduce fuel demand by 20% to 30%...
Combine that with the technolgoy... I definitely could see the V10 engines coming down to the 100kg per hour.

I know you are speaking for a practical standpoint but F1 has a way of rewriting the book on things!

As a side note the engines in the Gordon Murrary T50 and the Aston Valkyrie are interesting ones to watch for how efficient or not they are when you compare them to curretn Ferrari and Lamborghini NA V12 engines.
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PlatinumZealot
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vorticism wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:07 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:14 pm
Direct injection doesn't work well past 12k rpm. KERs must be powered, mguh is the perfect combo to KERS, but it turns the wasted engine noise into electrical power, you noise worshippers don't like that. The low friction is because you have 6 pistons instead of 10, and those 6 pistons are moving around 11k rpm rather than 18k rpm.

There is never a way that v10 will use less fuel than current PU, unless it is making drastically less power. Again, it must be repeated, in 1988 the 1.5L turbo cars were both fuel(195L) and boost(2.5 bars) limited against 3.5L unlimited engines and still the turbo cars won every single race. Asking for v10s back is like asking for carburation back, it is absurd and backwards, just for the sake of noise.
The last BMW V10 which was mothballed was DI iirc. They currently time 5 (?) injection events within ~.0005 s duration if I'm not mistaken, without much by way of DI innovation. Likely off the shelf piezo actuator tech from existing suppliers. Which is to say it may not represent the limit of development. The energy content of exhaust noise is low in either case; the turbine is moved primarily by exhaust heat and pressure. Equating decibels to frequency is a misunderstanding or disingenuous argumentation.
There is no BMW direct injection V10 as far as I know. And im a BMW fan.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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injection pressure became limited to 100 bar
presumably this was favoured by Mercedes and the like-minded to prevent DI development

johnny comelately
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Re: Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

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If it can be permitted to going back to noise... (41.5cc x 6)