Safety Cars and Fairness

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Big Tea
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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Not sure how practical it would be ,but the only way I see of keeping it 'straight' would be to have positions on the track at several points and SC period starts when you cross tha t point and ends when you re cross that same point when safety ends. I realise there could than be long sections of the track still to be raced before reaching the active point, but this would probably be covered as in yellows, no overtaking etc.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

basti313
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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discojesus100 wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:57 pm
Safety Cars and VSC's are an almost random variable and you can't completely negate it's effect on a race with rules this is just how racing works, however there could be ways to lessen their effect and often pot-luck nature.
Interestingly these discussions are always forced once the right or wrong driver in lead position looses it...although the effect is usually much bigger int he middle of the pack.
This time it did not even change the race winner....
discojesus100 wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:57 pm
-Introduce a Minimum Pit stop time under VSC's and Safety car
Minimum pit stop time is done in GT classes and nonsense. They even screw it in GT classes for unfair benefits.
The only realistic change, that maybe should be is that the VSC is not cut short. That it has to last for one full lap of the race leader. Like this everyone has the chance to stop under VSC.
Since now overtaking with new tires is well possible, there are nearly no games to play like this. The only one who has an issue is the one who stopped right before the VSC....but this is a small issue one can not solve without screwing the whole game even more.
discojesus100 wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:57 pm
-Pitlane closure until Lead driver passes Sector 3
Pit lane closure is the worst. Period. There is nothing more stu pid in motorsports.

If you may want to fix a big issue in the SC, then the SC may check if the race leader has time to pit. E.g. not send it out if the race leader is at the pitlane entrance. This would be easy to do for the race director, if there is a really bad accident, he pushes the red flag anyways today and in minor issues like this race with Bottas, there is no issue with waiting 10sec.

The bad thing this weekend was certainly the ending of the SC. The car of Bottas was removed and the track cleared according to team radios when the SC was in Sector 2. They could have easily started the unlapping in S3 - but waited until the next lap. Like this a full lap under SC speed was lost. With this stupid waiting which is now in the rules you have one full lap just watching the SC circle additionally.

discojesus100
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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Cs98 wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:31 am
Ok, lol. Silly thread. When Hamilton is involved and gets the short end of the stick the sport always needs a revolution for some reason. Activist fans maybe.
Implying I am a Hamilton fan, I am not, I don't mind him but between Max and Lewis last year for example I wasn't bothered who won, I just enjoy the sport.

Edax
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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Cs98 wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:31 am
<snip>

SCs happen, VSCs happen. Putting your drivers on a one stop leaves you open to such scenarios, that needs to be taken into account when you are strategising.
Indeed. There are many ways you can deal with VSC’s strategy wise to reduce your exposure. Safest is to copy your competitor, you will gain nothing and will lose nothing. . Going on an alternative strategy means rolling the dice, in might pay off or not.

It is interesting that I’ve never seen these discussions in indycar or nascar, even though the consequences can be even bigger. I mean there we could see Hamilton or Leclerc or Verstappen run out of fuel due to an untimely yellow, and Latifi win the race because he had a few gallons to spare.

I guess they see it more as an equalizer than a randomizer: by foresight or by taking a gamble the smaller teams can take on the big teams with the faster cars.

yamahasho
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:38 am
I do think there should be a limited for VSC rather than time delta. To easy to gain an advantage during the VSC
Great thread.

The solution is easy, VSC already does this but do 20 mph max speed not this 40% throttle nonsense. No pit lane at all, pit lane closed. They do this all the time in other forms of racing, race director puts in 1st and cars coast at 20 mph. Driver only turns the wheel. No one gains, and no one loses. They can take all the apex’s they want to gain, speed is simply too low to gain.

The person who just pitted before the safety doesn’t gain an advantage, his/her gap will be same since the cars are basically stopped.

You could add one element, let the back markers through but it’s a race, so I see no point in letting back markers through but it could be taken on a case by case basis. Maybe just back markers behind the 10th position can unlap themselves, for this equalizer effect F1 is after.

Maybe the cars would overheat but that’s a whole different topic. Speed can vary track by track. This also resolved all this bunching up nonsense.

This also works for if there is less than 5 laps to go, just one speed and no one gains. Those scenarios can be taken by the race director.

For the current rules, just pit no matter what, and stick with it. Another strategy, I think drivers have done this, if on the same tire compound, just stay in 2nd and close to the person you actually need to beat in front, no chance of you missing the pits. If you are in front, just maintain the 2 second gap (Schmacher strategy).

If slower cars beat you with fresh tires, they’ll beat the one in front too. One exclusion would be if the 3rd position person is the front competitors teammate. This is why you have your own teammate.

And always pick the same tire as your main competitor on race day unless you had a bad qualifying. Racers need a person parked on each corner, if a safety car occurs, they will get the info instantly rather than this whole one communicator nonsense.
“Truth enlightens the mind, but won't always bring happiness to your heart.”

A13EX_f
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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I see the full safety car come out too many times I do wonder if there is "The Show" considered when they pull it out hoping to bunch everyone up and create more of a spectacle (think Netflix generation of viewers)

The only time it should come out is if they need to bunch up the pack to provide marshalls with a safe gap to work on the track, all other times a virtual safety car/speed limit in a certain area of the track would do just fine,

I don't see the point in slowing down cars for the full lap when something minor is happening off the racing line or nowhere near the run-off area, I wonder if some form of speed limit could be applied whenever double yellow flags are displayed instead maybe starting at the exit to the corner before the incident. Too often in all classes you see drivers trying to gain on their opponents when yellows are shown seeing if they can get away with not slowing down quite as much as the car in front etc.

nokivasara
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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They could run on pit-limiter past the mini sectors needed to clear a minor incident (VSC), keep pitlane open and full race speed on the rest of the lap.

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Big Tea
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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nokivasara wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:57 pm
They could run on pit-limiter past the mini sectors needed to clear a minor incident (VSC), keep pitlane open and full race speed on the rest of the lap.
This will always catch some in the restricted section and some outside. There is even the possibility of catching the same cars twice an others not at all. To keep it even it has to start and end in the same place with drivers arriving there at the same timings
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mzivtins
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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under vsc all you have to do is half the pit lane limit.
Under SC you could do the same, or just leave the pits open and say anyone who pits under either full course yellows has to join at the back of the queue on the lead lap

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ispano6
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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Shrieker wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:20 am
I've been watching F1 for 25 years, this is not about Hamilton, not by a long shot.

For anyone carrying half a brain, it's the first problem that jumps at you. Even a 7 year old can tell the absurdity of it.

As for manipulation. Yes it's literally been demonstrated that it can, and does happen. In order to manipulate under the sc, first you need one #-o

As for the solution: In order for the time gaps to be restored, the cars and the systems literally have all the hardware needed. All that's left is a bit of software and the will to implement it. But when an sc/vsc has the possibility of spicing up a race (= views) why do that.

I've been following F1 for 36 years, and I'm certain that those in the F1 and FOM have decades of experience and wisdom to determine how SC and VSCs should work.

As for the manipulation you speak of, those words are Hamilton's from Abu Dhabi, so it's pretty obvious your displeasure is a result of Hamilton being on the short end of the stick, in that race and in the '22 Dutch GP.
In order to manipulate under the sc, first you need one
That is a troll comment if I've ever seen one. Abu Dhabi SC was brought out by Latifi, Dutch SC was brought out by Bottas. Neither of which are Red Bull teams. So, who is doing the manipulating in both of these instances?

mzivtins
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:47 am

I've been following F1 for 36 years, and I'm certain that those in the F1 and FOM have decades of experience and wisdom to determine how SC and VSCs should work.
I agree, but that does not mean there is not a problem, F1 cohesively works towards a few primary goals, one of those being the fan spectacle. Its is clear in modern F1 that the headline act over a weekend is nearly as important as the racing the location brings.

As fans who are here for only the racing, it is clear that things are left in a poor state when considering the racing, but the fan spectacle is through the roof... punters love the jeopardy, but it isn't racing.

Formula 1 is quickly divulging into a mess in order to please the Instagram style lifestyle, which is fine, but it should not detract from its core element of racing, which it clearly is.

The end of last year was incredible from a cliff hanger perspective, but an absolute travesty and an insult to sport across the world.

In all other racing series, Formula 1 is laughed at for how pathetic it is in these regards, things like VSC being so late to the table, team bosses attacking the integrity of marshals', race manipulation, putting a 2 lap race.

From a racing perspective, F1 and FOM have their judgement completely clouded.

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Shrieker
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:47 am

That is a troll comment if I've ever seen one.
The trolling happened on the circuit, not on the forum. Calling it out is not trolling lol what are you on about - you're the one trolling if anything. Where's masi ?

Btw, that's not the only manipulation i've seen in recent times. Many a time they did extremely sus vsc periods/restarts, according to on track placement of cars, in relation to the pit lane.
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nokivasara
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:00 pm
nokivasara wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:57 pm
They could run on pit-limiter past the mini sectors needed to clear a minor incident (VSC), keep pitlane open and full race speed on the rest of the lap.
This will always catch some in the restricted section and some outside. There is even the possibility of catching the same cars twice an others not at all. To keep it even it has to start and end in the same place with drivers arriving there at the same timings
That´s true, but it will also lessen (is that even a word?) the time saved on a VSC-pitstop vs a normal pit stop. I think that would be good, it would be more risky to pit during VSC than it is today.

About red flagging a race when the safety car is deployed during the last laps of a race, I think it sooner or later will be used as a tactic to secure a title. The safety car rules are fine as it is, they just need to be followed. Abu Dhabi last year was a human error IMO, had nothing to do with the rules.
Maybe they could unlap the cars by just dropping behind the leader instead of driving past and going that one extra lap to catch up. Just tell the transponder to add one lap to the lap counter, however that works.

Jolle
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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So, in which way was a finish under the safety car unfair or underwhelming? The race was done for a good bunch of laps before that. I’m of the opinion that, in contrast to most sports, the exciting bit of F1 is the first few laps, not the last.

The race was done.

nokivasara
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Re: Safety Cars and Fairness

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:03 pm
So, in which way was a finish under the safety car unfair or underwhelming? The race was done for a good bunch of laps before that. I’m of the opinion that, in contrast to most sports, the exciting bit of F1 is the first few laps, not the last.

The race was done.
Is this directed at me (the post above yours)?
I don't think it was unfair or underwhelming at all. Accindents and retirements happen, sometimes the SC is deployed, sometimes it isn't needed.
My take on making the unlapping easier was just in general, not directed at the situation in Monza.