Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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basti313
basti313
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:58 am
There's a button with a big "N" next to it on the tub. They're trained to press it. If that doesn't work, the driver being in the car probably wouldn't make a difference anyway - the clutch paddle isn't mechanically connected to the clutch - it's a potentiometer.
I fear your post is a bit theoretical, I am keeping to the examples of this weekend.

Riccardo: He managed to pull the clutch and to roll into the spot where he parked. After releasing the clutch the gearbox was blocked. The button is nice, but too often is not working. Riccardo staying in the car and holding the clutch would have been an easy and working solution.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:58 am
The drivers don't stay in the car because it's safer to get out and behind the barrier - something that's likely drilled in to them from day one in racing.
They did not show Riccardo, but it was crazy watching Vettel slowly undoing the belts, removing the steering wheel, getting up, putting everything back...
That VSC was a bit more than a lap of which half a lap was Vettel getting himself sorted.
You are lobbying for the drivers getting comfy...not save. If it is about save, Vettel could have easily jumped out without removing the wheel. Would have saved half a lap of VSC. Or he could have stayed in and steered the car while pushing...that would also have been much faster than what he did.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:58 am

As to not knowing where to park, if the team say "stop the car, stop the car!" they mean "NOW!". As it happens, Ricciardo parked in a relatively safe place and I don't really see why they couldn't just have waved yellows between the two Lesmo corners. No one overtakes there anyway and he was on the inside which is reasonably safe. Leaving the car there and letting the race finish normally wouldn't have been a problem, it seems to me.
So where was the reason for Tsunoda to stop on track? He had a broken drive shaft and managed more than one lap with this issue. The team deployed a "stop the car" easily, not because they had to. If they go back next race 3 places for this they will try to bring this car back.

For Riccardo I agree. But this is due to a weak race director. If you start sacking them you get what you plant.
First of all they needed to deploy the VSC, because it was clear that someone needs to go on track. That already killed half a lap. As this was not done I expected the same as you suggest....that they simply finish with yellows. But I fear that is also not clear to the race director that he finishes the race if he deploys the SC with 5 laps to go...

Just_a_fan
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Perhaps the simplest thing is to say "if a SC is necessary in the final 5 laps, the race is at an end immediately". Running around for 5 laps behind the SC and then finishing is pointless.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

basti313
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:48 am
Perhaps the simplest thing is to say "if a SC is necessary in the final 5 laps, the race is at an end immediately". Running around for 5 laps behind the SC and then finishing is pointless.
Dunno....is this what we want?
I see no reason for not elongating like they to in FE and I see no reason for not yellow flagging for no issues or red flagging if the issue is severe. I also see no reason for unlapping, blue flags, let them fall back and do their race.

And I would go further, I would even penalize beached cars. Let the marshals push them. Everyone who has beached a real car knows that a small push is enough and was enough in the past.

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chrisc90
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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I guess there will be a minimum amount of laps the safety car will need to do when it’s out. Technically it could be as low as 2 laps of there are no lapped cars to arrange and 3 if there is a lapped car. That is of course providing the incident is cleared within 1 lap.

There are many variables to it. Personally I’d add any laps done under SC onto the race total and make teams fuel up to a certain maximum number. Which wouldn’t really equate to a mega amount of fuel when your saving behind the SC anyhow.

You could say that a safety car within the last 2 laps will inevitably finish behind it, and it would be impossible to even do a red flag standing restart - which isn’t what the sport is about. If that’s the case we might aswell always forget the result up until 2-3 laps from the end and just have a shoot out with all cars on fresh soft tyres. That’s just stupid, regardless of how good it would look for the cameras.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

Jolle
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:45 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:58 am
There's a button with a big "N" next to it on the tub. They're trained to press it. If that doesn't work, the driver being in the car probably wouldn't make a difference anyway - the clutch paddle isn't mechanically connected to the clutch - it's a potentiometer.
I fear your post is a bit theoretical, I am keeping to the examples of this weekend.

Riccardo: He managed to pull the clutch and to roll into the spot where he parked. After releasing the clutch the gearbox was blocked. The button is nice, but too often is not working. Riccardo staying in the car and holding the clutch would have been an easy and working solution.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:58 am
The drivers don't stay in the car because it's safer to get out and behind the barrier - something that's likely drilled in to them from day one in racing.
They did not show Riccardo, but it was crazy watching Vettel slowly undoing the belts, removing the steering wheel, getting up, putting everything back...
That VSC was a bit more than a lap of which half a lap was Vettel getting himself sorted.
You are lobbying for the drivers getting comfy...not save. If it is about save, Vettel could have easily jumped out without removing the wheel. Would have saved half a lap of VSC. Or he could have stayed in and steered the car while pushing...that would also have been much faster than what he did.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:58 am

As to not knowing where to park, if the team say "stop the car, stop the car!" they mean "NOW!". As it happens, Ricciardo parked in a relatively safe place and I don't really see why they couldn't just have waved yellows between the two Lesmo corners. No one overtakes there anyway and he was on the inside which is reasonably safe. Leaving the car there and letting the race finish normally wouldn't have been a problem, it seems to me.
So where was the reason for Tsunoda to stop on track? He had a broken drive shaft and managed more than one lap with this issue. The team deployed a "stop the car" easily, not because they had to. If they go back next race 3 places for this they will try to bring this car back.

For Riccardo I agree. But this is due to a weak race director. If you start sacking them you get what you plant.
First of all they needed to deploy the VSC, because it was clear that someone needs to go on track. That already killed half a lap. As this was not done I expected the same as you suggest....that they simply finish with yellows. But I fear that is also not clear to the race director that he finishes the race if he deploys the SC with 5 laps to go...
If the car is switched off, the clutch won’t work anymore.

basti313
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:15 pm
I guess there will be a minimum amount of laps the safety car will need to do when it’s out. Technically it could be as low as 2 laps of there are no lapped cars to arrange and 3 if there is a lapped car. That is of course providing the incident is cleared within 1 lap.
No, it is more. Once the field is spread and there are lapped cars it takes about 1.5 to 2 laps to collect the field. You need to count that many cars are doing pitstops. This time it took nearly 3 laps to collect the cars.
Then they can remove it, they even put the tractor out this time before...but ok...one lap to remove it. Then one lap to remove the backmarkers and one lap afterwards "by the rule". So this makes 5 laps under SC, this time minimum 6 laps as they collected the first Mercedes...maybe used to....
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:15 pm
There are many variables to it. Personally I’d add any laps done under SC onto the race total and make teams fuel up to a certain maximum number. Which wouldn’t really equate to a mega amount of fuel when your saving behind the SC anyhow.
This is too complicated....they can simply go by saved fuel as in FE. If the SC is out for 3 laps one lap is added for example.
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:15 pm
You could say that a safety car within the last 2 laps will inevitably finish behind it, and it would be impossible to even do a red flag standing restart - which isn’t what the sport is about.
With 2 laps and an unavoidable SC you have to live with the race ending under the SC. All fine.
It is just ridiculous to cut the race short by 5 laps without a reason.

basti313
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:33 pm

If the car is switched off, the clutch won’t work anymore.
Not really true....the hydraulic pressure remains. Here he most probably did not switch the car into neutral as long as there was hydraulic pressure and due to the engine failure he lost it. But that is exactly the point: They stop the car with a gear engaged. This is the root of the issue. If the rule is to stay in the car and get pushed into a save position they do not have to do this and can put the car early into neutral.

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Zynerji
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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What about racing to the clock instead of laps? It's already kind of set that way (2 hours / laptime = #laps), so why not just run the race that way? SC deployment would shorten #laps simply by slowing the laptimes. Then the teams fuel for time, and manage during the events of the race.

I think that we want to avoid the NASCAR syndrome however. As laps count down to the end, desperation and risk taking exponentially rise, leading to yellow after yellow. I don't want to watch 90mins of strategic mastery just to watch the rolling SC lottery for the last 30 minutes...

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vorticism
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:33 pm
Riccardo: He managed to pull the clutch and to roll into the spot where he parked. After releasing the clutch the gearbox was blocked. The button is nice, but too often is not working. Riccardo staying in the car and holding the clutch would have been an easy and working solution.
A secondary system for manual override of the clutch should not be difficult to implement. Any number of ways to design it. A cable acting on the same pivot the primary hydraulic piston acts upon, pulled by a ratcheting lever or dial. A second hydraulic path with its own actuator, motivated by a lever or screw driven piston elsewhere on the car--in the cockpit or on the exterior somewhere. A screw head exposed near the fuel filler or on top of the safety cell or on the rear crash structure.

Most simple would be to give the trackside personnel a saw which can cut through the drive shafts. An abrasive wheel would be through it in a few seconds.

Jolle
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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vorticism wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:29 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:33 pm
Riccardo: He managed to pull the clutch and to roll into the spot where he parked. After releasing the clutch the gearbox was blocked. The button is nice, but too often is not working. Riccardo staying in the car and holding the clutch would have been an easy and working solution.
A secondary system for manual override of the clutch should not be difficult to implement. Any number of ways to design it. A cable acting on the same pivot the primary hydraulic piston acts upon, pulled by a ratcheting lever or dial. A second hydraulic path with its own actuator, motivated by a lever or screw driven piston elsewhere on the car--in the cockpit or on the exterior somewhere. A screw head exposed near the fuel filler or on top of the safety cell or on the rear crash structure.

Most simple would be to give the trackside personnel a saw which can cut through the drive shafts. An abrasive wheel would be through it in a few seconds.
There already is a system like that. There is a button on the cockpit, just before the driver with the letter "N", which puts the car in neutral (a system separate from all the hydraulics and elections). But.. if somehow the gearbox itself failed, this might break as wel of course.

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vorticism
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:36 pm
There already is a system like that. There is a button on the cockpit, just before the driver with the letter "N", which puts the car in neutral (a system separate from all the hydraulics and elections). But.. if somehow the gearbox itself failed, this might break as wel of course.
Exactly, I'm suggesting something more robust. By manually operated I mean input energy supplied by a man, not push button electronics. Energy supplied by a man's arm acting upon an input lever or screw.

Jolle
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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vorticism wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:47 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:36 pm
There already is a system like that. There is a button on the cockpit, just before the driver with the letter "N", which puts the car in neutral (a system separate from all the hydraulics and elections). But.. if somehow the gearbox itself failed, this might break as wel of course.
Exactly, I'm suggesting something more robust. By manually operated I mean input energy supplied by a man, not push button electronics. Energy supplied by a man's arm acting upon an input lever or screw.
this was (presumably) one of the rare occasions that a car, somehow, didn't wanted to go into neutral. This is rare. Next time it might be a brake that's locked up, or a driveshaft that is welded solid on it's bearings or a diff that has locked... Even if they had a pull cord to unlock the gearbox, who knows.. maybe the problem was something that even such a lever or cord would't "unlock".
Not every problem needs a better solution.

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vorticism
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:28 pm


this was (presumably) one of the rare occasions that a car, somehow, didn't wanted to go into neutral. This is rare. Next time it might be a brake that's locked up, or a driveshaft that is welded solid on it's bearings or a diff that has locked... Even if they had a pull cord to unlock the gearbox, who knows.. maybe the problem was something that even such a lever or cord would't "unlock".
Not every problem needs a better solution.
Yeah, it is niche. Although a few thousand Italian GP attendants might have liked its existence. The redundant system could also be in the cockpit actuated then by the driver or by personnel. Leclerc had an issue a few races ago where he couldn't get the car into neutral causing it to stall, iirc.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:21 pm

With 2 laps and an unavoidable SC you have to live with the race ending under the SC. All fine.
It is just ridiculous to cut the race short by 5 laps without a reason.
Finishing behind the SC is shortening the race. They aren't racing, they're parading.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

saviour stivala
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Re: Safety Car/Virtual Safety Car - Pit Stops Suggestions

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The FIA should investigate why the driver left his car stranded on track with an engine failure still in fourth gear and not in neutral , and also why the ‘N’ button of same car did not work.