2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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mendis
mendis
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:46 am
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:48 am
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... rumbles-on

It's worth a read, an on the fence piece discussing the for us or against us extremes and allegiances plauging F1 at the moment, including some of the media.
This bit pretty much sums it up.
Red Bull’s approach has been perceived as displaying a lack of tolerance, a confrontational attitude of a binary nature, exacerbating the divide between fans.

One senior figure in the sport views the current situation with concern. “They seem to have a view that if you are not with us you are against us,” he said. “It leaves no middle ground, because you are either in opposition or allegiance.”

It kind of reminds me of a saying I once heard. "If you go looking for war, eventually you'll find one."
Earlier this week Matthew Syed took Horner to task in the Times, accusing him of gracelessness and gaslighting. “How dare the Red Bull principal deploy sensitive moral issues such as bullying and mental health to deflect from his own rule-breaking,” Syed wrote.
wife of Red Bull technical director Adrian Newey took to Twitter to castigate Syed. “What qualifies you to judge me, my husband’s or any member or family member of Red Bull’s mental state?,” she wrote. “Provoking the fans with toxic journalism adds to the problem.”
This here clearly shows, stupid people hold pen and live in a bubble of their own righteousness. The author has no understanding of the situation of people in a team and goes attacking the team principal, only to be schooled by family of that team's member. The guy seems too shallow to understand that due the mistakes of a handful people in Red Bull, close to thousand other team members are going through bullying and attacks and suffering with mental health issues, which should be an obvious matter of concern for the leader of the team and as such he highlights it.

People in journalism build and feed bad narratives and when someone affected questions it, they try gaslighting them, just because they can. I have zero regards for such stupid people like Ted and the author above that doesn't know their own sh*t and are so oblivious to the consequences innocent people have to suffer due to their irresponsible words.

CRazyLemon
CRazyLemon
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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This is a nice video by The Race, doesn't pick a side. Somewhat swayed me a little more to the center from the position I was holding prior to watching it.

Mosin123
Mosin123
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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mendis wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:53 am
dans79 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:46 am
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:48 am
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... rumbles-on

It's worth a read, an on the fence piece discussing the for us or against us extremes and allegiances plauging F1 at the moment, including some of the media.
This bit pretty much sums it up.
Red Bull’s approach has been perceived as displaying a lack of tolerance, a confrontational attitude of a binary nature, exacerbating the divide between fans.

One senior figure in the sport views the current situation with concern. “They seem to have a view that if you are not with us you are against us,” he said. “It leaves no middle ground, because you are either in opposition or allegiance.”

It kind of reminds me of a saying I once heard. "If you go looking for war, eventually you'll find one."
Earlier this week Matthew Syed took Horner to task in the Times, accusing him of gracelessness and gaslighting. “How dare the Red Bull principal deploy sensitive moral issues such as bullying and mental health to deflect from his own rule-breaking,” Syed wrote.
wife of Red Bull technical director Adrian Newey took to Twitter to castigate Syed. “What qualifies you to judge me, my husband’s or any member or family member of Red Bull’s mental state?,” she wrote. “Provoking the fans with toxic journalism adds to the problem.”
This here clearly shows, stupid people hold pen and live in a bubble of their own righteousness. The author has no understanding of the situation of people in a team and goes attacking the team principal, only to be schooled by family of that team's member. The guy seems too shallow to understand that due the mistakes of a handful people in Red Bull, close to thousand other team members are going through bullying and attacks and suffering with mental health issues, which should be an obvious matter of concern for the leader of the team and as such he highlights it.

People in journalism build and feed bad narratives and when someone affected questions it, they try gaslighting them, just because they can. I have zero regards for such stupid people like Ted and the author above that doesn't know their own sh*t and are so oblivious to the consequences innocent people have to suffer due to their irresponsible words.
Why are you excluding Horner from this? He is the biggest hate bringer on the grid and in sport in gerneral, did you see the hate he caused when he claimed LH tried to kill Max even though he is in a f1 car that can go head first into a barrier go bang and a driver walk out barely hurt ( Minus a few burns ofc ) He is the instigator in his own backlash, as a Ferrari fan, Redbull and Horner and Marko and even Max's double standards grate on people. Even more so when their fans seem to think its every body else, its not, Redbull has caused its own issues and is now trying to blame every one else...... Eg when max rams some one off track its just hard racing, when its any body else, its " they was trying tro kill max crap, we even frabricated some evidence for you with our reserve driver that cant even get a seat in f1 " LOL Come on...

Nothing Ted said was wrong, you should spend an evening listening to footballs pundits tearing into teams, players , managers, and refs........ F1 gets it easy when compared to sports with more integrity. Horners behavour wouldnt even be accepted in Rugby for instance, or Cricket, or golf, or track field, or baseball, american football blah blah blah. Didnt he once set Redbull and Max fans upon a mashall who dedicated his weekend to work for free to allow them to race / practise / qualify?. That marshall had to go into hiding because of Redbulls remarks towards him.....

I have exactly 0 sympathy for Redbull.

Mosin123
Mosin123
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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CRazyLemon wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:32 am


This is a nice video by The Race, doesn't pick a side. Somewhat swayed me a little more to the center from the position I was holding prior to watching it.
although nuetral, to me it gives the impression redbull got off lightly, and even went as far as to incinuate that if Redbull didnt own up and take the punishment and embarrassment and accept the ABA, Max would have lost his titles. eg they didnt have a leg to stand on.

littlebigcat
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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If they didn’t accept the ABA then it opens up punishments greater than those of a minor infringement, so there would be that possibility.

mendis
mendis
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:48 am
Why are you excluding Horner from this? He is the biggest hate bringer on the grid and in sport in gerneral, did you see the hate he caused when he claimed LH tried to kill Max even though he is in a f1 car that can go head first into a barrier go bang and a driver walk out barely hurt ( Minus a few burns ofc ) He is the instigator in his own backlash, as a Ferrari fan, Redbull and Horner and Marko and even Max's double standards grate on people. Even more so when their fans seem to think its every body else, its not, Redbull has caused its own issues and is now trying to blame every one else...... Eg when max rams some one off track its just hard racing, when its any body else, its " they was trying tro kill max crap, we even frabricated some evidence for you with our reserve driver that cant even get a seat in f1 " LOL Come on...

Nothing Ted said was wrong, you should spend an evening listening to footballs pundits tearing into teams, players , managers, and refs........ F1 gets it easy when compared to sports with more integrity. Horners behavour wouldnt even be accepted in Rugby for instance, or Cricket, or golf, or track field, or baseball, american football blah blah blah. Didnt he once set Redbull and Max fans upon a mashall who dedicated his weekend to work for free to allow them to race / practise / qualify?. That marshall had to go into hiding because of Redbulls remarks towards him.....

I have exactly 0 sympathy for Redbull.
It's really hard to continue in an argument when the post clearly spells the bias. You completely missed the point when started with attacking Horner. Your last statement sums it up. Period.
As far football is concerned, in my opinion, everything associated with Football, the players' behavior, the referees' bias, the madness of the fans is so far removed from civilization that using such a tragedy as a reference is really quite poor.
Last edited by mendis on Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mosin123
Mosin123
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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mendis wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:14 am
Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:48 am
mendis wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:53 am





This here clearly shows, stupid people hold pen and live in a bubble of their own righteousness. The author has no understanding of the situation of people in a team and goes attacking the team principal, only to be schooled by family of that team's member. The guy seems too shallow to understand that due the mistakes of a handful people in Red Bull, close to thousand other team members are going through bullying and attacks and suffering with mental health issues, which should be an obvious matter of concern for the leader of the team and as such he highlights it.

People in journalism build and feed bad narratives and when someone affected questions it, they try gaslighting them, just because they can. I have zero regards for such stupid people like Ted and the author above that doesn't know their own sh*t and are so oblivious to the consequences innocent people have to suffer due to their irresponsible words.
Why are you excluding Horner from this? He is the biggest hate bringer on the grid and in sport in gerneral, did you see the hate he caused when he claimed LH tried to kill Max even though he is in a f1 car that can go head first into a barrier go bang and a driver walk out barely hurt ( Minus a few burns ofc ) He is the instigator in his own backlash, as a Ferrari fan, Redbull and Horner and Marko and even Max's double standards grate on people. Even more so when their fans seem to think its every body else, its not, Redbull has caused its own issues and is now trying to blame every one else...... Eg when max rams some one off track its just hard racing, when its any body else, its " they was trying tro kill max crap, we even frabricated some evidence for you with our reserve driver that cant even get a seat in f1 " LOL Come on...

Nothing Ted said was wrong, you should spend an evening listening to footballs pundits tearing into teams, players , managers, and refs........ F1 gets it easy when compared to sports with more integrity. Horners behavour wouldnt even be accepted in Rugby for instance, or Cricket, or golf, or track field, or baseball, american football blah blah blah. Didnt he once set Redbull and Max fans upon a mashall who dedicated his weekend to work for free to allow them to race / practise / qualify?. That marshall had to go into hiding because of Redbulls remarks towards him.....

I have exactly 0 sympathy for Redbull.
It's really hard to continue in an argument when the post clearly spells the bias. You completely missed the point when started with attacking Horner. Your last statement sums it up. Period.
So is Horner an angel and a great sporting role model? We all have are own opinions, but every thing Redbull is moaning about is stuff they have done upon others, more than once, amazing at those who cry the loudest are the main offenders of that of which they now moan about.

mendis
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:27 am
So is Horner an angel and a great sporting role model? We all have are own opinions, but every thing Redbull is moaning about is stuff they have done upon others, more than once, amazing at those who cry the loudest are the main offenders of that of which they now moan about.
Don't make a habit of reading what is not written. My post was specifically concerning of mental health and social security of the Red Bull employees. People in the media riling up aggressive fans which is producing unhealthy behavior towards innocent people that work in Red Bull and their families (hope not one of your realtive works there and i also hope you haven't been physically attacked by people driven by racism, leaving mental scars) is gross and I don't think people like Ted have brains to understand the damage they cause. Horner is the leader of the company and is obligated to speak for his staff. Because you hate him, doesn't mean he shouldn't do his job.

MadMax
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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mendis wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:31 am
(hope not one of your realtive works there and i also hope you haven't been physically attacked by people driven by racism, leaving mental scars)
Have people at Red Bull been physically attacked? If so, that's terrible and to be condemned by all sensible people.

And what is the thing about racism?

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InsaneX_Badger
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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If people have seen my posts (there are many, my bad) you know who I am a fan of. But people having a go at Horner are missing the point. The whole point of the team principle is to live in the grey, and it urkes people as no one on the paddock does it better than him right now. He is so good at being in the grey that he can be fully in the dark and wrong but still present himself as grey. His ultimate goal is to protect RBR interests and I think he knows he's managed to get Red Bull off lightly with the cost cap ABA

Mosin123
Mosin123
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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mendis wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:31 am
Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:27 am
So is Horner an angel and a great sporting role model? We all have are own opinions, but every thing Redbull is moaning about is stuff they have done upon others, more than once, amazing at those who cry the loudest are the main offenders of that of which they now moan about.
Don't make a habit of reading what is not written. My post was specifically concerning of mental health and social security of the Red Bull employees. People in the media riling up aggressive fans which is producing unhealthy behavior towards innocent people that work in Red Bull and their families (hope not one of your realtive works there and i also hope you haven't been physically attacked by people driven by racism, leaving mental scars) is gross and I don't think people like Ted have brains to understand the damage they cause. Horner is the leader of the company and is obligated to speak for his staff. Because you hate him, doesn't mean he shouldn't do his job.
Taking the fall out of his teams actions is also part of his job, and markos, and maxs, and the whole team, you win and lose as a team.

Horner trying to deflect attention and gain sympathy when he has caused more of what you just said, sparking hate to lh, to marshalls, to other teams on the grid, is getting no sympathy from the majority of the sporting world.

i dont agree with family members being dragged in.

Redbull is a team who has been crying wolf for years, while stringing out any one who dare criticise redbull or even a marshall just doing his job, he is better off spending his engery facing up to his teams poor choices that has turned the grid and fans against them rather than standing on pride rock telling every one else they are all wrong and redbull are above every one else and how draconian his teams light punishment is and how even though they agreed they overspent, they still refuse to publicly accept that.

I am not going to crucify a sky sports pundit for using his freedom to speak freely in a iob he actually gets paid to do just that, to protect redbulls poor ability to stick to the financial regs. Again compared to other sports, F1 gets off... I don't see thousands of thousands of fans standing out side fia / redbull racings home protesting, asking for heads to roll and so on.

I feel sorry for family members, that sort of thing is disgusting and 100% un called for and worng, but for those who work at redbull. No sympathy for them or redbull or max. They represent redbull, a team many feel have cheated the sport. The moment they cheat fans, as in all sports, you and your team are in trouble.

Hiding and trying to blank history and claim sympathy rather than facing reality and moving on is not going to help one bit.

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:59 pm
but for those who work at redbull. No sympathy for them or redbull.
But not everyone at Red Bull would be to blame. IMO this falls only to the leadership. Max is an innocent party as well IMO as far as the cost cap is concerned. I don't think it's fair to blame anyone else for the cost cap violation. Not the regular rank and file members of the team, and certainly not their family members.

MadMax
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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e30ernest wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:04 pm
Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:59 pm
but for those who work at redbull. No sympathy for them or redbull.
But not everyone at Red Bull would be to blame. IMO this falls only to the leadership. Max is an innocent party as well IMO as far as the cost cap is concerned. I don't think it's fair to blame anyone else for the cost cap violation. Not the regular rank and file members of the team, and certainly not their family members.
It's the opposite of football. There, if a team does badly, the manager gets the chop. It's the players that have failed to perform but he gets it. In F1, Red Bull management have failed to meet the rules and the "little guy" team members are getting the grief, which is wrong really.

Part of Horner's job is to take the grief from the sport / journalists / fans / etc.. That's why he's the front man for the team. Get the pats on the back when it goes well, take the crap when it doesn't. So having a go at him is fair enough.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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mendis wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:31 am
Mosin123 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:27 am
So is Horner an angel and a great sporting role model? We all have are own opinions, but every thing Redbull is moaning about is stuff they have done upon others, more than once, amazing at those who cry the loudest are the main offenders of that of which they now moan about.
Don't make a habit of reading what is not written. My post was specifically concerning of mental health and social security of the Red Bull employees. People in the media riling up aggressive fans which is producing unhealthy behavior towards innocent people that work in Red Bull and their families (hope not one of your realtive works there and i also hope you haven't been physically attacked by people driven by racism, leaving mental scars) is gross and I don't think people like Ted have brains to understand the damage they cause. Horner is the leader of the company and is obligated to speak for his staff. Because you hate him, doesn't mean he shouldn't do his job.
With respect, Horner is doing a lot more than his job. Throughout his time as team principle, he has let his ego, his arrogance, his dislike for others, and his unwillingness to ever expect anything that doesn't workout the way he thinks it should; get the better of him time and time again.

Qatar last year was a perfect example, something didn't work out the way he wanted, so he lashed out at a random individual who's name he didn't even know. Thankfully the fia actually did something about that.

He also isn't thats caring to members of his team. Here is another perfect example from mexico last year.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... cymYH.html
I think we got Tsunoda'd!” said a rueful Horner after the session, when asked about the incident. “Both drivers were up on their last lap, Max was up two and a half tenths, I think Checo was just under two-tenths up, and I don't understand why [Tsunoda] was just cruising around at that part of the circuit.
Horner has made a career out of antagonizing, and insulting others, and it's finally coming back to bite him, his drivers, and his team in the backside.

With regards to Mrs. Newey, maybe she should tell her husband to have a conversation with his fellow executive about not causing so much strife and bringing unwanted attention to the team.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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MadMax wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:57 pm
Part of Horner's job is to take the grief from the sport / journalists / fans / etc.. That's why he's the front man for the team. Get the pats on the back when it goes well, take the crap when it doesn't. So having a go at him is fair enough.
Imo, Horner causes most of the grief himself with his actions, words, and attitude!
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