That's not racing. That rule only applies in a high speed braking zone and it should stay there.bluechris wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 20:40I don't understand why FIA letting this things happening constantly. Put up the ruling that any driver who has anyone beside him by a wheel or more, he must give him space. Let them to do late braking or anything and penalize only the forcing the other driver off track.
Imo this is more simple and the drivers will learn to respect each other and give them space.
This isn't go-karting, all a rule like thats would do is encourage out of control late braking dive-bombs and accidents. I'm sure Liberty and the DTS fanbase would love that, but it isn't racing!bluechris wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 20:40I don't understand why FIA letting this things happening constantly. Put up the ruling that any driver who has anyone beside him by a wheel or more, he must give him space. Let them to do late braking or anything and penalize only the forcing the other driver off track.
Imo this is more simple and the drivers will learn to respect each other and give them space.
So you agree Silverstone 2021 was entirely Lewis' fault.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 01:27A wheel or more will never work. That's even worse that the old rule that says it must be front wheel to side pod which is safer. Front wheel to rear wheel does not deserve any right to be given space. The attacker should back off at that point.
No.mendis wrote:So you agree Silverstone 2021 was entirely Lewis' fault.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 01:27A wheel or more will never work. That's even worse that the old rule that says it must be front wheel to side pod which is safer. Front wheel to rear wheel does not deserve any right to be given space. The attacker should back off at that point.
Oops, right... That's on me, I was doing some other calcs in parallel and made a boo-boo here. You and Gooch pushed me to go a step further and check if I'm going crazy just to be sure...
Thanks again, I really appreciate this kind of analysis but I will have to disagree once again. From google maps I got R55.7 for normal line and R55.2 for a line that could keep Max right on the edge of the track. Let's make them R56 and R55 just in case. Anyone can feel free to check the math, chosen lines and arcs drawn. I've left measurements from G-maps for length reference.
Your hypothetical line assumes there is nothing in the way to prevent it being used. To do so the Red Bull would need to be ahead at the apex, which apex might come in to play but I don’t think so from calcs below.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 09:38Oops, right... That's on me, I was doing some other calcs in parallel and made a boo-boo here. You and Gooch pushed me to go a step further and check if I'm going crazy just to be sure...
Thanks again, I really appreciate this kind of analysis but I will have to disagree once again. From google maps I got R55.7 for normal line and R55.2 for a line that could keep Max right on the edge of the track. Let's make them R56 and R55 just in case. Anyone can feel free to check the math, chosen lines and arcs drawn. I've left measurements from G-maps for length reference.Gooch wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 19:32It's not just about speed. Centrifugal force is also dependent on radius of the corner which will always be diminished when you are running the inside.
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https://i.ibb.co/h2WqkBY/radius.png
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https://i.ibb.co/Kj8K9CB/radius.png
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https://i.ibb.co/hgTmYxW/Untitled.jpg
Case 1 - Max, lap 7, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 90kg fuel, 146kmh, R55 - F_cf=28,928N
Case 2 - Hamilton, lap 63, 800kg car, 80kg driver+seat, 11kg fuel, 153kmh, R56 - F_cf=28,738N (-0.65%)
I'd say this hypothetical line for Max would certainly be far from undoable. And that's without taking into account he could brake a bit more if he wanted to, to make sure he would keep it on track. In any case, his T3 entry would be compromised as hell and he'd be a sitting duck for Perez, let alone Hamilton. Another reason Hamilton should have been smarter with his corner entry and let Max overshoot racing line...
This line allows him to stay on the edge, not go over it like he did after being hit. He's entitled to that line. I also showed he didn't carry too much speed. And he would have also had a chance to brake if he wanted to. Just like any other driver on track, he's entitled to that kind of line and driving.GrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:06I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.
It validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.
You mean Hamilton would get another taste of his own "hard-racing" medicine and get pushed to the edge of the track? What's the problem with that? Again, we don't know what would have happened after T2 apex, since Max got hit and then they bot went straight out, so there is no evidence that Hamilton would be pushed out because it didn't happen.GrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:06As well as his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point.
Why not? This kind of line is not common, but not illegal in any way. Hamilton did stuff like this to others a lot.
your posts shows your wrong. you want LH to completely change line so your wonderboy max can take a free overtake whilst on a completely stupid line that would ( as it did ) ruin his run up to t3 and t4.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:34This line allows him to stay on the edge, not go over it like he did after being hit. He's entitled to that line. I also showed he didn't carry too much speed. And he would have also had a chance to brake if he wanted to. Just like any other driver on track, he's entitled to that kind of line and driving.GrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:06I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.
It validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.
You mean Hamilton would get another taste of his own "hard-racing" medicine and get pushed to the edge of the track? What's the problem with that? Again, we don't know what would have happened after T2 apex, since Max got hit and then they bot went straight out, so there is no evidence that Hamilton would be pushed out because it didn't happen.GrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:06As well as his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point.
Why not? This kind of line is not common, but not illegal in any way. Hamilton did stuff like this to others a lot.
Btw, not sure if you understand, but I was comparing Max' line and racing line, not Hamilton's. Hamilton also took a tighter line for T2, I guess to prepare his position for what would eventually happen.
1.Vanja #66 wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:34This line allows him to stay on the edge, not go over it like he did after being hit. He's entitled to that line. I also showed he didn't carry too much speed. And he would have also had a chance to brake if he wanted to. Just like any other driver on track, he's entitled to that kind of line and driving.GrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:06I like how your own analysis pretty much confirms graphically what people have been saying about Max carrying overspeed through the apex in the wrong direction (across the racing line) so he can actually slow down and rotate the car at or past the edge of the track.
It validates Karun Chandhoks slow motion analysis that Maxs trajectory going into the corner was off the track edge.
You mean Hamilton would get another taste of his own "hard-racing" medicine and get pushed to the edge of the track? What's the problem with that? Again, we don't know what would have happened after T2 apex, since Max got hit and then they bot went straight out, so there is no evidence that Hamilton would be pushed out because it didn't happen.GrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 10:06As well as his and many other people's view that Hamilton leaving a cars width at the apex would have allowed Max to stay alongside him as a red herring argument because no matter where Lewis' Line goes through that corner, Maxs line from your own interpretation always crosses over Lewis' at some point.
Why not? This kind of line is not common, but not illegal in any way. Hamilton did stuff like this to others a lot.
Btw, not sure if you understand, but I was comparing Max' line and racing line, not Hamilton's. Hamilton also took a tighter line for T2, I guess to prepare his position for what would eventually happen.
Not what I want, it's what rules require Hamilton to do. Both attacker and defender are required to leave space on track for the other car. Max was besides all the times (whatever way you look at him, as attacking or defending driver), so he was entitled to more space in T2 apex whatever his line was.
Please don't twist my words. I never described Max' move as divebomb or not a divebomb. I don't care what it was, I'm not his fan. I've shown stewards ruling was baseless and amateurish since Max wouldn't have left the track after T2 apex. That's it. Feel free to dispute those numbers, do your own analysis, whatever you feel likeGrizzleBoy wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 11:08I like how your response to the "more space would've allowed them both through the corner" analysis being debunked even partly by your own hypothetical line showing Max doing just as much door closing as Hamilton (and we know he would have) is a "so what, Lewis did it X,y,z times before" lol. So closing the door is just hard racing, except when it isnt. But only when it is. Except when it isnt. But only if in the past abcdefg