Monaco Gate 2022

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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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vanburin wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm
pakoyz250f wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:17 pm
I don´t think checo did that on purpose. I mean he risked his gear box, Sainz was behind also on a fast lap and crashed hard in to him and for what??? to start on 3rd? A safer place to try that is on the corner schumi did it and we know what happened next. I think it was more of a bad mistake...

For me as a Mexican and a Checo fan I really really hope that Checo gets 2nd place without help of Max and just say "yeah I got this 2 place without help of anybody" mic drop.. walk away and start war on 2023 (wet dream I know RB is all about Max)

Checo was so close on the first half on same conditions so I hope next year he becomes Minister of War. Mercedes is going to be on the fight next year and RB is going to need both drivers at its best.
You are 100% right on this, but unfortunately Red Bull has no idea how or no intention of having both drivers compete at their very best (or better yet, both drivers given the opportunity to perform at their best). They've won the constructors championship 5 times, and the drivers championship 6 times, and not once have had a driver finish 2nd in the drivers championship in any of those years. It's a remarkable feat, really, and one that cannot be simply answered by "their #2 drivers not being good enough".
It's a combination of many things but the #2 not being good enough is a good part of it while the car not being through and through dominant in 1 or 2 of the seasons explains the other part making the driver even more important.

Let's look at who finished second in the years that RB won the WDC

2010 - Fernando Alonso
2011 - Jenson Button
2012 - Fernando Alonso
2013 - Fernando Alonso
2021 - Lewis Hamilton
2022 - TBD


Do you think Mark Webber was anywhere near as good as Fernando Alonso from 2010-2014? :?
In other words...why does it surprise you that Mark Webber didn't beat Fernando Alonso?

Do you think Checo Perez was driving anywhere near as good as Lewis Hamilton in 2021 especially in cars that were relatively even across the season :? In 2022, have you seen how Perez has struggled to simply pass the same cars that Max was passing? Whose fault is that?

From 2014 - 2016, Mercedes was battling themselves because of the power unit. From 2017-2021, Bottas only finished P2 in 2019 and 2020 and primarly because Bottas was an exceptional qualifier in a track position dominated era, whereas Perez isn't today.

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vanburin
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:02 pm
vanburin wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm

You are 100% right on this, but unfortunately Red Bull has no idea how or no intention of having both drivers compete at their very best (or better yet, both drivers given the opportunity to perform at their best). They've won the constructors championship 5 times, and the drivers championship 6 times, and not once have had a driver finish 2nd in the drivers championship in any of those years. It's a remarkable feat, really, and one that cannot be simply answered by "their #2 drivers not being good enough".
It's a combination of many things but the #2 not being good enough is a good part of it while the car not being through and through dominant in 1 or 2 of the seasons explains the other part making the driver even more important.

Let's look at who finished second in the years that RB won the WDC

2010 - Fernando Alonso
2011 - Jenson Button
2012 - Fernando Alonso
2013 - Fernando Alonso
2021 - Lewis Hamilton
2022 - TBD


Do you think Mark Webber was anywhere near as good as Fernando Alonso from 2010-2014? :?
In other words...why does it surprise you that Mark Webber didn't beat Fernando Alonso?

Do you think Checo Perez was driving anywhere near as good as Lewis Hamilton in 2021 especially in cars that were relatively even across the season :? In 2022, have you seen how Perez has struggled to simply pass the same cars that Max was passing? Whose fault is that?

From 2014 - 2016, Mercedes was battling themselves because of the power unit. From 2017-2021, Bottas only finished P2 in 2019 and 2020 and primarly because Bottas was an exceptional qualifier in a track position dominated era, whereas Perez isn't today.
I do think Mark Webber in equal, top machinery as his teammate would fare a better chance than Alonso or Button in either of those cars they drove. Vettel won 11 races in 2011 for example, Mark won 1 at the end of the season when the championship was long settled prior. But admittedly that discussion is hypothetical and opinion based.

What isn't opinion is the nature to which RB treats their #2 drivers. There is no secret to it. Maybe the better argument is RB cannot attract a better second driver, directly as a result of their priority treatment of Vettel, Max, etc.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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vanburin wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:24 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:02 pm
vanburin wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm

You are 100% right on this, but unfortunately Red Bull has no idea how or no intention of having both drivers compete at their very best (or better yet, both drivers given the opportunity to perform at their best). They've won the constructors championship 5 times, and the drivers championship 6 times, and not once have had a driver finish 2nd in the drivers championship in any of those years. It's a remarkable feat, really, and one that cannot be simply answered by "their #2 drivers not being good enough".
It's a combination of many things but the #2 not being good enough is a good part of it while the car not being through and through dominant in 1 or 2 of the seasons explains the other part making the driver even more important.

Let's look at who finished second in the years that RB won the WDC

2010 - Fernando Alonso
2011 - Jenson Button
2012 - Fernando Alonso
2013 - Fernando Alonso
2021 - Lewis Hamilton
2022 - TBD


Do you think Mark Webber was anywhere near as good as Fernando Alonso from 2010-2014? :?
In other words...why does it surprise you that Mark Webber didn't beat Fernando Alonso?

Do you think Checo Perez was driving anywhere near as good as Lewis Hamilton in 2021 especially in cars that were relatively even across the season :? In 2022, have you seen how Perez has struggled to simply pass the same cars that Max was passing? Whose fault is that?

From 2014 - 2016, Mercedes was battling themselves because of the power unit. From 2017-2021, Bottas only finished P2 in 2019 and 2020 and primarly because Bottas was an exceptional qualifier in a track position dominated era, whereas Perez isn't today.
I do think Mark Webber in equal, top machinery as his teammate would fare a better chance than Alonso or Button in either of those cars they drove.
It reads like you are saying Webber would have been a more challenging teammate to Vettel than Button or Alonso and but I'm probably missing something? If that's what you mean, I disagree.

As I said before, Webber was P2 heading into AD, ahead of Vettel and behind Alonso in 2010. He lost that weekend all by himself.

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vanburin
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:32 pm
vanburin wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:24 pm

I do think Mark Webber in equal, top machinery as his teammate would fare a better chance than Alonso or Button in either of those cars they drove.
It reads like you are saying Webber would have been a more challenging teammate to Vettel than Button or Alonso and but I'm probably missing something? If that's what you mean, I disagree.

As I said before, Webber was P2 heading into AD, ahead of Vettel and behind Alonso in 2010. He lost that weekend all by himself.
Yeah I worded that poorly. What I meant was had Webber been given the same car/opportunity as Vettel, he would be a closer challenge to Vettel, compared to Alonso in that year's Ferrari or Button in the 2011 McLaren.

I do agree about 2010 and Abu Dhabi, Webber lost that one all by himself with his inability to find pace. Of course had DRS been a thing a year prior to it's introduction in 2011, it's quite possible either him or Alonso would have been crowned 2010 WDC.

Good conversation! :)

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Big Tea
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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There are other reasons the driver finishes in a lower position, for instance sacrificing their race for the benefit of the lead driver.
Even if only through sub optimum pit stops so the team can study tyres.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

RonMexico
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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vanburin wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm
pakoyz250f wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:17 pm
I don´t think checo did that on purpose. I mean he risked his gear box, Sainz was behind also on a fast lap and crashed hard in to him and for what??? to start on 3rd? A safer place to try that is on the corner schumi did it and we know what happened next. I think it was more of a bad mistake...

For me as a Mexican and a Checo fan I really really hope that Checo gets 2nd place without help of Max and just say "yeah I got this 2 place without help of anybody" mic drop.. walk away and start war on 2023 (wet dream I know RB is all about Max)

Checo was so close on the first half on same conditions so I hope next year he becomes Minister of War. Mercedes is going to be on the fight next year and RB is going to need both drivers at its best.
You are 100% right on this, but unfortunately Red Bull has no idea how or no intention of having both drivers compete at their very best (or better yet, both drivers given the opportunity to perform at their best). They've won the constructors championship 5 times, and the drivers championship 6 times, and not once have had a driver finish 2nd in the drivers championship in any of those years. It's a remarkable feat, really, and one that cannot be simply answered by "their #2 drivers not being good enough".
Why can't it? Webber was pretty poor in 2011 and 2013 when Vettel was at his best. He was good in the first half of 2012 but fell apart then. Same for the last two races in 2010 when he probably should have won the whole thing.

Perez is quite a bit off max in both qualifying and the race.

AR3-GP
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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People forget how much Max has helped Checo to get to P2 in the WDC.

Saudi Arabia - Max defeated Charles
Imola - Max defeated Charles in sprint race
Miami - Max defeated Charles
Monaco - Max defeated Charles (well Ferrari defeated Charles but....)
Italy - Max defeated Charles
Japan - Max defeated Charles
USA - Max defeated Charles


From this perspective, Max is the reason Checo is still in the battle with Charles going into Abu Dhabi.

If Max finished 2nd in Saudi Arabia, Miami, Italy, and Japan, Perez would no longer be in the fight for 2nd place. :wink:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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How could they allow this libelous thread to live?

When Perez crashed last year the public thought nothing of it. Now, after one year this is dug up and twisted to fit an agenda? For shame.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:40 am
How could they allow this libelous thread to live?

When Perez crashed last year the public thought nothing of it. Now, after one year this is dug up and twisted to fit an agenda? For shame.
Last year? :wtf:

The event in question is the 2022 Monaco GP qualifying session. 5/28/22

Dee
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:40 am
How could they allow this libelous thread to live?

When Perez crashed last year the public thought nothing of it. Now, after one year this is dug up and twisted to fit an agenda? For shame.
Those in the know were suspicious, i.e every person with racing knowledge that looked at the data

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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:22 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:19 pm
yamahasho wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:53 pm


Perez declared in an interview. "I don't understand his attitude after all I have done for him. "If he has won two championships it is thanks to me."
First, I understand RBR order, Max had nothing to lose, points are irrelevant for him, and no podium in play. I think he should have let Checo pass, even if the team already won both WCC and WDC, any team will prefer finishing 1-2 in WDC than 1-3

But that statement from Perez I bolded on Yamahasho post... RFLOMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
English isn't Checo's first language. The backwards phrasing makes that obvious.
The bolded part is pretty obvious no matter what is your native language, and obviously Checo´s english is more than good enough to express that. He was trying to value himself, but saying that after Max won with 4 GPs remaining is so laughable it´s almost comical, for a second I thought it was a joke #-o :mrgreen:

saviour stivala
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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What are Perez, Horner and Marko going to do now, are they going to sue? This question is being asked because it have been reported by a British based F1 site that “Dutch journalist Erik Van Haren claimed that Perez admitted to Horner and Marko that he crashed on purpose in Monaco’’. A note here, I am in no way defending Verstappen in not obeying team orders.

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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Dee wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:42 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:40 am
How could they allow this libelous thread to live?

When Perez crashed last year the public thought nothing of it. Now, after one year this is dug up and twisted to fit an agenda? For shame.
Those in the know were suspicious, i.e every person with racing knowledge that looked at the data
There was a whole run on here about the possibility of it being deliberate, before the Ferrari strategic implosion the following day.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

DDopey
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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"With Max and the team, everything was discussed yesterday and kept internal. This is behind us and we will continue to work as the great team we have been so far"

Perez is quite quick in forgiving. Makes you wonder.

GrizzleBoy
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Re: Monaco Gate 2022

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I'm just here waiting for Max to boycott all his fans for spreading toxic conspiracy theories that are affecting Red Bull employees.

Maybe Red Bulls twitter account will make a statement about libellous accusations toward their staff in an attempt to distract from other obvious issues.

Any day now.