F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:16 pm
... It happens on road cars too and their tyres are cold, especially in wet weather.
... not enough to cause significant enough evaporation to create a dry line behind the car. The vastly more significant way that standing water is removed from the track is physically moving it with the tyre...
road or track the tyres of each speeding car are a 100+ kW 'hair dryer' acting on one part of the road surface
'drying' ie reducing in various ways the suspended liquid water aka spray by heating the 'physically moved' water
ie the notional moving effect doesn't occur without the effects of that heat occurring

plus F1 wheel aerodynamic drag will also heat local air (maybe 50 kW) - and heat it by brake cooling (maybe 200 kW)

all the above mechanisms present as 'standing water physically moved with the tyre'

mzso
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:59 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:17 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:16 pm
... It happens on road cars too and their tyres are cold, especially in wet weather.
... not enough to cause significant enough evaporation to create a dry line behind the car. The vastly more significant way that standing water is removed from the track is physically moving it with the tyre...
road or track the tyres of each speeding car are a 100+ kW 'hair dryer' acting on one part of the road surface
'drying' ie reducing in various ways the suspended liquid water aka spray by heating the 'physically moved' water
ie the notional moving effect doesn't occur without the effects of that heat occurring

plus F1 wheel aerodynamic drag will also heat local air (maybe 50 kW) - and heat it by brake cooling (maybe 200 kW)

all the above mechanisms present as 'standing water physically moved with the tyre'
What's your point? Yes the tires heat up, but also it's irrelevant. The massive amounts.of water soak up the heat easily. Water is also one of the highest heat capacity substances known.

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Vanja #66
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Ferrari is testing latest version of "wheel arches" for extreme wet tyres today. At this point it's not even funny, these are full wheel covers probably tested to see if even the most extreme cover solution would work. It doesn't

Image

Image

Image
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

SharkY
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 9:10 am
Ferrari is testing latest version of "wheel arches" for extreme wet tyres today. At this point it's not even funny, these are full wheel covers probably tested to see if even the most extreme cover solution would work. It doesn't
Well, TBH the spray behind the car with covers looks slightly diminished compared with another, however it's hard to judge, given how close the cars were.

With the amount of air going below the floor, that is than directed sharply upward with the help of beam wing, I don't see how can there be a solution to this problem within these regulations. Unless we just block the diffuser outlet :lol:

BTW Fernando felt nostalgic and decided to give Ferrari a spin? :wink:

Saykas
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Image

clownfish
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Saykas wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 11:20 am
https://i.imgur.com/wfRORCv.jpeg
Looks like more water being is pushed outwards, less upwards.

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Vanja #66
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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clownfish wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 11:38 am
Looks like more water being is pushed outwards, less upwards.
A bit like that, but only on front. Front tyres leave no vertical spray, but in the rear there is a big rooster tail spray just like it always is. It's not about tyre cover, it's about downforce, diffuser and rear wing combined with their strong vortex interaction pick up a lot of water from the rear and just send it up.

In 2026 this will be a smaller problem with narrower tyres and far less downforce than today, it's no use fixing a problem that's about to diminish on its own...
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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FW17
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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LMP car with all closed wheels could not prevent spray. They need some devices in side that would make them to droplets rather than mist

Image

Xyz22
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Image

mzso
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 11:42 am
clownfish wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 11:38 am
Looks like more water being is pushed outwards, less upwards.
A bit like that, but only on front. Front tyres leave no vertical spray, but in the rear there is a big rooster tail spray just like it always is. It's not about tyre cover, it's about downforce, diffuser and rear wing combined with their strong vortex interaction pick up a lot of water from the rear and just send it up.

In 2026 this will be a smaller problem with narrower tyres and far less downforce than today, it's no use fixing a problem that's about to diminish on its own...
Maybe the FIA shoud just prevent vortex generation, since it causes yet another problem.

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Zynerji
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Why not just put tyre scrapers on the bottom rear-third of the brake duct? Also, I've suggested a re-lamination extension behind the diffuser (just a carbon box with 5mm hex pattern mesh that is 250mm deep, and got lots of downvotes) in the past to help with the disturbed air behind a car, and I feel that would also stop the high-lift spray...
Last edited by Zynerji on Thu May 09, 2024 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Holm86
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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FW17 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 1:15 pm
LMP car with all closed wheels could not prevent spray. They need some devices in side that would make them to droplets rather than mist

https://toyotagazooracing.com/pages/con ... 13/ogp.jpg
But LMP cars doesn't stop racing every time I rains a bit.

Personally I'd rather see F1 implement;
1. A better full wet tire
2. An FIA controlled ECU overwrite rain MAP which brings down the fuel flow to about 50%, should bring down speeds and make racing more safe

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Vanja #66
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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The floor edge vortex is broken up completely on F1-75 due to a massive change in front tyre fairing. Even if test wasn't a failure in terms of results, this kind of aero interference would make teams outlaw these massive fairings.

****
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

mzso
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 5:23 pm
FW17 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 1:15 pm
LMP car with all closed wheels could not prevent spray. They need some devices in side that would make them to droplets rather than mist

https://toyotagazooracing.com/pages/con ... 13/ogp.jpg
But LMP cars doesn't stop racing every time I rains a bit.

Personally I'd rather see F1 implement;
1. A better full wet tire
2. An FIA controlled ECU overwrite rain MAP which brings down the fuel flow to about 50%, should bring down speeds and make racing more safe
Or they could just simply race as it is, like they did for 60 years.

mzso
mzso
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Re: F1 Evaluating ‘Wheel Arches’

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 5:36 pm
The floor edge vortex is broken up completely on F1-75 due to a massive change in front tyre fairing. Even if test wasn't a failure in terms of results, this kind of aero interference would make teams outlaw these massive fairings.

****
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTtBpthJdw
Why don't the front fairings have sidewalls?