2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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RZS10
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Joined: 07 Dec 2013, 01:23

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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I don't know if anyone has picked up on it but it looked like the race start procedure wasn't fully adhered to.

The regulations say
44.10 When the cars come back to the grid at the end of the formation lap or laps, they must stop within their respective starting grid positions, keeping their engines running.
a) There will be a standing start, the signal being given by means of lights activated by the permanent starter.
b) Once all the cars have come to a halt the five (5) second light will appear followed by the four, three, two and one second lights. At any time after the one-second light appears, the race will be started by extinguishing all red lights.
The permanent starter is a steward who oversees the start procedures, Charlie Whiting used to do it as race director but since his passing it became a separate role.

Now to the footage:
https://i.imgur.com/uwVGHbu.mp4

When the marshall with the green flag starts going there's still two cars out of position on the right, it looks like Piastri stopped one row too early, Gasly behind has to wait, Piastri moves up and when the camera changes the Alpine is still moving and maybe comes to a halt a tenth of a second before the first light goes red.

The other thing is the light boards on the pit wall, they tell the drivers where to go and once they are in their grid slot the driver side turns off and the other side goes green, showing the permanent starter that the car is in position.

Looking carefully it's clear that the green light for Gasly isn't on until there's already 2 out of the 5 red lights
Image
Image

Judging by his start it did not seem to have impacted Gasly in any way, meaning he managed to do all the necessary pre-start procedures on the wheel but sticking to the regulations strictly the race start procedure was initiated prematurely and the race start probably should have been aborted?

I personally don't remember seeing anything like this.

zibby43
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Joined: 04 Mar 2017, 12:16

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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DChemTech wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 09:48
Lot of doom and gloom after what was actually an entertaining race - except for P1, there was definitely some action, more than in most of the previous era with the impossible-to-follow-the-car-ahead trains.

- Mercedes did better than I expected based on testing. Combined with AMR coming up, we may have a genuine fight between Fer, MB and AMR - instead of a top 2, no-mans-land 3, and the rest. Very curious to see what the teams have in the pipeline still.

- Great job from Williams. I expected them to go up a bit, then testing didn't look too great... but Albon delivered. Wonderful, hope they can keep it up. Also good job from Yuki - I expected AT to be more to the back.

- Haas disappointed; I did not expect Nico to retain his top 10 position, but didn't expect him to drop all the way back.

Now I understand some of the gloomy feeling here - Max was ahead by a lot. On the other hand, it's race 1, there's a long season ahead, and there is the effect of reduced development time that may hamper Red Bull. So I wouldn't call anything done and dusted just yet - and even if P1 is set, there's a lot more potential for action in the rest of the field with the current formula than with the 2014-2021 trains. Also, some of the complaints just seem plain wrong in my mind.
Tvetovnato wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 21:41
The ironic thing now is that the cost cap is working right against what it was supposed to achieve.
I do not see how that would possibly be true. In 2014-2020, without a cost cap, we saw a single team dominating. The top 3 teams essentially spent the same, so for them, there's no difference between having a cost cap or not in terms of relative spending - things are not more locked in now then they were then. For the rest of the field, they were spending much less - meaning that there's a lot more potential for them to reasonably catch up (or not see the top of the field run away further with their absurd spending). Without the cost cap, things would just be worse.
Tvetovnato wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 21:41
Had the 2021 regulations been kept, we would have had at least 3 teams within 2 tenths of each other both last year and this year, and amazing seasons for years to come.
Maybe if they kept the exact same wording, but they rarely do. And even minor reg changes can prevent this from happening. 2020 was one of Mercedes' most dominant years, yet minor changes aside, it was 6 years into that set of regulations. On the other hand, 2022, with a whole new regulation set, started off perfectly - with Ferrari competitive and leading. Then they started dropping the ball again, and were crippled by a mid-season rule change - but before that, things looked good despite a complete rule overhaul. And at least, in contrast to 2014-2021, cars were able to follow each other and we saw some spiced up racing in the rest of the field.
zibby43 wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 22:04
I enjoyed those seasons when Nico and Lewis were at least battling it out.
That was one season, really. In the others, it was pretty clear who was winning.
zibby43 wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 22:04
but Checo will not provide any intra-team competition, and that sucks
Bit early to say that. I don't expect any 2016 level stuff, but he seems to be more comfortable with the current car. It may at least be similar to Hamilton - Bottas. It's been one race - let's not draw conclusions that cannot be drawn yet.
2 of the seasons with Nico went down to literally the last race.

Please don’t gaslight the Merc fans that are being good sports lol.

Checo is Bottas 2.0. Except RB will ensure that there exists no scenario in which Checo will be given priority over strategy in a race, unless Max has DNF’d.

AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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zibby43 wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 18:19
DChemTech wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 09:48
Lot of doom and gloom after what was actually an entertaining race - except for P1, there was definitely some action, more than in most of the previous era with the impossible-to-follow-the-car-ahead trains.

- Mercedes did better than I expected based on testing. Combined with AMR coming up, we may have a genuine fight between Fer, MB and AMR - instead of a top 2, no-mans-land 3, and the rest. Very curious to see what the teams have in the pipeline still.

- Great job from Williams. I expected them to go up a bit, then testing didn't look too great... but Albon delivered. Wonderful, hope they can keep it up. Also good job from Yuki - I expected AT to be more to the back.

- Haas disappointed; I did not expect Nico to retain his top 10 position, but didn't expect him to drop all the way back.

Now I understand some of the gloomy feeling here - Max was ahead by a lot. On the other hand, it's race 1, there's a long season ahead, and there is the effect of reduced development time that may hamper Red Bull. So I wouldn't call anything done and dusted just yet - and even if P1 is set, there's a lot more potential for action in the rest of the field with the current formula than with the 2014-2021 trains. Also, some of the complaints just seem plain wrong in my mind.
Tvetovnato wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 21:41
The ironic thing now is that the cost cap is working right against what it was supposed to achieve.
I do not see how that would possibly be true. In 2014-2020, without a cost cap, we saw a single team dominating. The top 3 teams essentially spent the same, so for them, there's no difference between having a cost cap or not in terms of relative spending - things are not more locked in now then they were then. For the rest of the field, they were spending much less - meaning that there's a lot more potential for them to reasonably catch up (or not see the top of the field run away further with their absurd spending). Without the cost cap, things would just be worse.
Tvetovnato wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 21:41
Had the 2021 regulations been kept, we would have had at least 3 teams within 2 tenths of each other both last year and this year, and amazing seasons for years to come.
Maybe if they kept the exact same wording, but they rarely do. And even minor reg changes can prevent this from happening. 2020 was one of Mercedes' most dominant years, yet minor changes aside, it was 6 years into that set of regulations. On the other hand, 2022, with a whole new regulation set, started off perfectly - with Ferrari competitive and leading. Then they started dropping the ball again, and were crippled by a mid-season rule change - but before that, things looked good despite a complete rule overhaul. And at least, in contrast to 2014-2021, cars were able to follow each other and we saw some spiced up racing in the rest of the field.
zibby43 wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 22:04
I enjoyed those seasons when Nico and Lewis were at least battling it out.
That was one season, really. In the others, it was pretty clear who was winning.
zibby43 wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 22:04
but Checo will not provide any intra-team competition, and that sucks
Bit early to say that. I don't expect any 2016 level stuff, but he seems to be more comfortable with the current car. It may at least be similar to Hamilton - Bottas. It's been one race - let's not draw conclusions that cannot be drawn yet.
2 of the seasons with Nico went down to literally the last race.

Please don’t gaslight the Merc fans that are being good sports lol.

Checo is Bottas 2.0. Except RB will ensure that there exists no scenario in which Checo will be given priority over strategy in a race, unless Max has DNF’d.
They gave him priority when he was ahead in Saudi and Monaco last year. You're looking for a problem where there isn't one. Checo isn't ahead or faster very often.

Mercedes is the same way. Driver ahead gets priority.

I'm not saying its you but there's a lot of people who like to imagine Red bull is literally ballasting Perez's car so that he's slower.

He crashed his car several times in the first half of last season (Monaco, Austria, Canada), and then people got mad that RB couldn't give him an older floor that Max was running until Singapore. It doesn't make sense. You break it, you buy it. That's why he didn't get those parts. It wouldn't have been fair to steal from Max's spare parts bin to keep rebuilding Checo's car. God forbid it was the other way around and some people would have wanted Red Bull looted for taking Checo's spare parts to fix Max's car if Max had crashed 3 times.
Last edited by AR3-GP on 06 Mar 2023, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Chuckjr
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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Checo is the perfect Barachello, and like Barachello, he gets a ton of podiums over the coming years, and a few race wins when inevitably Max can’t win. He rides the ride of a dominant team and all the trimmings and trappings that go with dominant teams. He’s competitive with everyone in the field, can build stats, and make fan base impressions only the sharp end guys can access because their cars are so damn good — regaining from way back in the pack, fastest laps, impossible passes, etc. Then there’s the money, and endorsements, and recognition, and becoming an icon in racing history that will benefit him and his family the rest of their lives. I’ve never understood why being a clear #2 is such a horrible horrible thing. 🤷‍♂️
Watching F1 since 1986.

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Mogster
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Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 14:02

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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Chuckjr wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 19:30
Checo is the perfect Barachello, and like Barachello, he gets a ton of podiums over the coming years, and a few race wins when inevitably Max can’t win. He rides the ride of a dominant team and all the trimmings and trappings that go with dominant teams. He’s competitive with everyone in the field, can build stats, and make fan base impressions only the sharp end guys can access because their cars are so damn good — regaining from way back in the pack, fastest laps, impossible passes, etc. Then there’s the money, and endorsements, and recognition, and becoming an icon in racing history that will benefit him and his family the rest of their lives. I’ve never understood why being a clear #2 is such a horrible horrible thing. 🤷‍♂️
It’s accepting you’re second rate though isn’t it.

You assume that every driver comes to F1 believing they can be a multi WDC. You’ve topped your peer group and aren’t accustomed to failure. Even if you aren’t in a position to win then if you had the car that that’s winning then you’d win as well… right? Then you move to the top team, you‘re 0.5 secs off that guy, even the odd time you have track position the team ask you to defer. The media are calling you “wingman” or “butler”.

Sounds great… :lol:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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mendis wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 09:19
PlatinumZealot wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 04:20
RedBull can now stop spending on RB19 and focus on the RB20. It's 2000 to 2004 again. Times when you watch F1 and read the sunday paper at the same time.
I wonder what happened to that performance ceiling thing that RB was suppoed to hit and others making gains because their concepts have more development avenue compared to RB. As there is no change in regulations from 2023 to 24, there is no need to stop the development/spending on RB19 as all of it's developments would carry over to 2024. May be if FIA can publish the 2026 car regulations, then RB can start spending some money on that.
They are close to the ceiling. The fact that the Rb19 is a slight refinement of RB18. The problem is the other teams are still behind.

Watch the racing laptimes throughout the year on like for like compunds and you will see this.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Oleo
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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RZS10 wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 16:43
I don't know if anyone has picked up on it but it looked like the race start procedure wasn't fully adhered to.

The regulations say
44.10 When the cars come back to the grid at the end of the formation lap or laps, they must stop within their respective starting grid positions, keeping their engines running.
a) There will be a standing start, the signal being given by means of lights activated by the permanent starter.
b) Once all the cars have come to a halt the five (5) second light will appear followed by the four, three, two and one second lights. At any time after the one-second light appears, the race will be started by extinguishing all red lights.
The permanent starter is a steward who oversees the start procedures, Charlie Whiting used to do it as race director but since his passing it became a separate role.

Now to the footage:
https://i.imgur.com/uwVGHbu.mp4

When the marshall with the green flag starts going there's still two cars out of position on the right, it looks like Piastri stopped one row too early, Gasly behind has to wait, Piastri moves up and when the camera changes the Alpine is still moving and maybe comes to a halt a tenth of a second before the first light goes red.

The other thing is the light boards on the pit wall, they tell the drivers where to go and once they are in their grid slot the driver side turns off and the other side goes green, showing the permanent starter that the car is in position.

Looking carefully it's clear that the green light for Gasly isn't on until there's already 2 out of the 5 red lights
https://i.imgur.com/dr9eKWZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/M9n8HTn.png

Judging by his start it did not seem to have impacted Gasly in any way, meaning he managed to do all the necessary pre-start procedures on the wheel but sticking to the regulations strictly the race start procedure was initiated prematurely and the race start probably should have been aborted?

I personally don't remember seeing anything like this.
Nice spot, just wanted to add that Bottas was the driver with the error, stopping one gridplace too soon. Every car behind him then had to move ahead one spot (Tsunoda, Sargeant, Piastri and Gasly)
Weird mistake from Bottas.

AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 20:35
mendis wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 09:19
PlatinumZealot wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 04:20
RedBull can now stop spending on RB19 and focus on the RB20. It's 2000 to 2004 again. Times when you watch F1 and read the sunday paper at the same time.
I wonder what happened to that performance ceiling thing that RB was suppoed to hit and others making gains because their concepts have more development avenue compared to RB. As there is no change in regulations from 2023 to 24, there is no need to stop the development/spending on RB19 as all of it's developments would carry over to 2024. May be if FIA can publish the 2026 car regulations, then RB can start spending some money on that.
They are close to the ceiling.
Mercedes was "close to the ceiling" for 8 years :wink:


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RZS10
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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Oleo wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 20:43
RZS10 wrote:
06 Mar 2023, 16:43
[...]
Nice spot, just wanted to add that Bottas was the driver with the error, stopping one gridplace too soon. Every car behind him then had to move ahead one spot (Tsunoda, Sargeant, Piastri and Gasly)
Weird mistake from Bottas.
Interesting, i didn't see that in the footage right before the start, the gantry was blocking the view.

It kinda feels like they just started the race as is simply because it was the first one of the season and aborting the start would have been very anticlimactic :lol: - and didn't make any difference in the end

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organic
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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Very good spot @RZS10. Rookie error from race control!

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Stu
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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locking yet another thread to give it a clean up of off-topicness (yes word of the year!!) having browsed through pages of nonsense I imagine that warnings will ensue…

…and they did!
Many, many posts have been deleted, some (relating to the merits-or otherwise-of the effectiveness of the cost cap & RRA) stay in as it has obviously had affect on the pace & raciness of the teams.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Juzh
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Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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Highest speed of the race was
335 @ sar
334 @ tsu
334 @ ham

...

AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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The testing thread has been closed, but does anyone know if teams were allowed to use as many tires as they wanted during the pre-season test?

LM10
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Joined: 07 Mar 2018, 00:07

Re: 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 03 - 05

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AR3-GP wrote:
08 Mar 2023, 16:35
The testing thread has been closed, but does anyone know if teams were allowed to use as many tires as they wanted during the pre-season test?
30 tire sets in total, as far as I remember. Don't know how many of which sort, though.

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