Telemetry thread 2023

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.

Should a car telemetry thread be created

Yes
82
98%
No
2
2%
 
Total votes: 84

bagajohny
4
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 08:58

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

Andi76 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 08:54
Some interesting telemetry data/comparisons from Leclercs fastest lap in FP against Verstappens and Alonsos, published by the Italian Site FunoAT:

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/


Tire wear/degradation with high fuel :

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

How do I view these images in large view? Clicking on them takes me to the homepage of postimages.

Andi76
388
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

bagajohny wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 09:39
Andi76 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 08:54
Some interesting telemetry data/comparisons from Leclercs fastest lap in FP against Verstappens and Alonsos, published by the Italian Site FunoAT:

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/


Tire wear/degradation with high fuel :

https://postimages.org/

https://postimages.org/

How do I view these images in large view? Clicking on them takes me to the homepage of postimages.
Here is the page itself from which these are :

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2023 ... 6870117188

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2023 ... a-fp2.html

There you should be able to enlarge them.

User avatar
organic
948
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

The data on Aston martins tyre wear is based on one simulation that Alonso did where he pumped in a 136.2 on his first lap as opposed to the 137.5 of Max's first lap (and both ended up averaging 137.2). In other words the engineers told him to push from the get-go, simulating an undercut or perhaps they just wanted data on how the tyres react when not brought in gently

Their high wear in fp2 is an artifact

101FlyingDutchman
15
Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 12:01

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

The above should really go into the telemetry thread imho.
The fact the SF23 loses a lot in braking zone could just be its running a few kgs more fuel making it necessary to brake earlier. Until we see qual, it’s really hard to make up a general picture of overall DF. The tyre degradation profile is more interesting here and it shows what has been worked on from Ferraris side

User avatar
Vanja #66
1329
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38
Contact:

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

Andi76 wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 08:54
As for the tires, it's noticeable that the SF-23 is very slow at the start but gets progressively faster, suggesting that qualifying pace has been sacrificed for race pace and the tires are now being brought up to temperature more slowly but evenly. The Aston, on the other hand, is somewhat reminiscent of the F1-75 and is immediately strong but then drops off extremely, while the RB19 has less extreme and is slower but reasonably quick to get up to temperature and, as in 2022, shows little drop in performance and is therefore probably best and longest at keeping the tires in the optimum range and should have the least tire wear and degradation.
It does look like these tyres need to be carefully nursed not to drop off during the race. Mercedes likely missed 1-2 tenths in Q last year because the car was gentle on tyres (after they managed to get the right ride height setup, first races were a big compromise for them) which was a benefit in the race. Expanding the setup range that Ferrari already mentioned as a big goal for SF-23 also speaks towards this.

Ideally, you'd want to be able to heat the tyres as you see fit in every weekend, sometimes nursing softer compounds is a big benefit in the race and sometimes pushing hard on harder compounds (when the delta is small) would be the way to go.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
Bisonas
2
Joined: 01 Feb 2015, 11:56

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

organic wrote:
04 Mar 2023, 11:24
The data on Aston martins tyre wear is based on one simulation that Alonso did where he pumped in a 136.2 on his first lap as opposed to the 137.5 of Max's first lap (and both ended up averaging 137.2). In other words the engineers told him to push from the get-go, simulating an undercut or perhaps they just wanted data on how the tyres react when not brought in gently

Their high wear in fp2 is an artifact
That's true.
Alonso did the exact opposite of what he did in his much discussed race sim last week.
Now he knows how the C3 reacts on both occasions.
I expect Aston Martin to have much better Tyre Deg than Ferrari and Mercedes in the race.

User avatar
variante
131
Joined: 09 Apr 2012, 11:36
Location: Monza

Re: Telemetry thread 2023

Post

I did a quick comparison of the fastest Q3 laps of RedBull, Ferrari, AstonMartin and Mercedes.
Data taken from F1 Tempo.

Medium speed carried in all corners' apexes - in fast ones - in slow ones :
RBR 125 - 156 - 73
FER 124 - 154 - 72
AMA 123 - 154 - 70
MER 122 - 152 - 72

Top speed with DRS open - top speed with DRS closed (on a different straight) - delta :
RBR 323 - 295 - 28
FER 325 - 299 - 26
AMA 319 - 295 - 23
MER 319 - 301 - 18


DATA DISCUSSION (which doesn't consider engine power, drive-style, and many other factors):
- The RedBulls seem to enjoy the highest level of downforce and mechanical grip, at the expense of drag. A nicely designed DRS flap largely mitigates such problem, when open.
- The Ferraris are on par with the RedBulls in terms of efficiency, trading some downforce for additional top speed. They are somewhat behind in mechanical grip and DRS efficacy.
- The AstonMartins also privilege downforce over drag reduction, without quite managing to reach the RedBulls' results. But mechanical grip might be the Astons' main issue.
- The Mercedes seem to be set up for low drag even harder than the Ferraris. Except for their small DRS flap, which doesn't allow them to fully express their top speed potential in DRS zones.

The DRS will be used less often during the race, giving Ferrari and Mercedes the chance to close the gap. Lower drag also means less fuel mass to carry. So, based on those numbers alone, i'd expect the RedBulls and Ferraris to be equally fast tomorrow, while the Astons might struggle to contain the Mecedes.
Let's see if that makes sense...

Andi76
388
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

Long runs from FP2 may give a hint why Ferrari and Leclerc(in red)has chosen to save one set of soft tires.

Image

The SF-23 is actually pretty close and within 0.3 secs of Vetstappen(in blue)and faster than Perez(white) An additional set of soft tires, used correctly, could actually make it possible to close the gap to Verstappen. In general, it shows that the gap is no longer so large even in the long runs and the SF-23, at least with Leclerc, does not drop so much. The tire wear and degradation seems to have improved. Alonso(green) starts extremely fast, but the tires seem to be exposed to extreme degradation and also the Mercedes(purple and Light green/blue) seems to degrade more, whereas the RB19 like its predecessor seems to handle the tires best. However, the signs are positive that at least Leclerc (Sainz seems to have more problems here) can handle the new Pirelli tires well. This suggests that the SF-23 generally handles the tires much better. Sainz(yellow)unlike Leclerc, doesn't seem to be able to get the tires through the various heat cycles properly, or his set-up is disadvantageous in this regard. In general, however, the long runs give hope that the SF-23 is a more tire-friendly car and that the basis for a good compromise between qualifying and racing has been found. We will see tomorrow in the race whether the indications given by the data are actually correct.

Xyz22
79
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

I saw an interesting tweet on my timeline. A screen from an user on IG which is making analysis on telemetry. He is saying that Charles has completely changed his driving style to adapt to the SF 23.. Specifically, according to him, he is not trail braking any more in the corners, and he is braking much earlier overall, having a lower minimum speed in the entry of the corners to minimize understeering, getting better traction and thus achieving a better top speed in the straights. According to him, it's possible to see this even compared to Sainz.

Dialtone could you confirm this is true? You're the only one i trust regarding telemetry analysis : )

dialtone
104
Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 04:31
I saw an interesting tweet on my timeline. A screen from an user on IG which is making analysis on telemetry. He is saying that Charles has completely changed his driving style to adapt to the SF 23.. Specifically, according to him, he is not trail braking any more in the corners, and he is braking much earlier overall, having a lower minimum speed in the entry of the corners to minimize understeering, getting better traction and thus achieving a better top speed in the straights. According to him, it's possible to see this even compared to Sainz.

Dialtone could you confirm this is true? You're the only one i trust regarding telemetry analysis : )
lmao, thanks for the confidence :).

Image

2022 LEC Q v 2023 LEC Q

* Yeah I think it's a valid observation, this year LEC's braking is more on/off with the throttle, while last year he would get on the brakes but stay on the throttle during corner entry, see T1 red throttle trace gets to 0 very close to the apex. Approach to T1 is completely different compared to last year, it's worse IMHO as he loses almost 0.2s just in T1, but it's different, he brakes early and takes it almost like a V corner, I think VER has this style a bit more than LEC.
* Another curious corner is T11 (3400m) where LEC last year would quickly get on the throttle to force the car to steer through the corner almost immediately after releasing the throttle, this year he did the same but not as aggressively.
* At 900m (right after the first corner) you can really see the insane improvement in acceleration thanks to engine being full beans (it wasn't full beans last year here yet), and the new aero package, LEC comes out of T1 worse than in 2022 by some margin and is 7kph slower at the apex there, and yet once he turns the car, matches the F1-75, on the early part of traction they are together, then the SF-23 just takes off from 120kph to 240kph that acceleration curve is a massive improvement.
* Even with the smaller wing, at T5-6-7 the car matches the one from last year perfectly, in fact even gains a little bit in those 3 corners, sign that it's true they managed to get more downforce out of the car even with the smaller wing and aero efficiency.

All in all the instagram post is correct, so tip of the hat for noticing this in the telemetry to whoever was on IG. I would also observe however that this could be due to the balance issues, but it could also help preserve the rear tires at the same time.

Andi76
388
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Ferrari SF23

Post

On motorsport.com Matt Kew has published a good analysis of the GPS data from the SF-23 and the RB19:

"...the RB19 can't be caught at early power, even if Leclerc was able to get back on the throttle faster in the tight first corner, looking ahead to the decisive Q3 laps.But Verstappen's advantage is only short-lived: on the back straight towards turn 4 it's the SF-23 that has the higher top speed at 304 km/h - Verstappen only gets to 301 km/h. Interestingly, this is once again exactly the opposite of last year, when Red Bull had the upper hand on the straights. The RB19 seems to have more downforce, as Verstappen is faster in the right-hand corner and the more brutal medium-fast Turn 7. In the fluid middle section in between, however, Leclerc again dictates the pace. And that's the trend for the rest of the lap, too: Red Bull accelerates better out of the notorious Turn 10, a downhill left-hander, and takes more speed through the uphill Turn 12. Verstappen finds time again in Turn 13, too, and has an advantage before the penultimate straight, but the low-drag Ferrari makes up for it by arriving four km/h faster in the final braking zone.

At the apex of the final corner, the Ferrari is actually faster, just as it was in 2022, before the Red Bull sets the benchmark again on acceleration. Only at the finish line can the Ferrari crack the RB19's speed of 293 km/h again."

In relation to the Aston Martin, the SF-23 loses especially in the braking zones and the slow apexes. Alonso's car has, according to his analysis, the better mechanical grip, but is also the slowest of the three cars on the straights, where he then also loses a lot of time compared to the SF-23.

I think this shows that Ferrari worked on the weaknesses of the F1-75 in the SF-23, but they had to trade some of its strengths for it. Since Red Bull, at least in this analysis, seems to have done the same, the roles are reversed to 2022 - the Ferrari is the faster car in terms of top speed while the Red Bull gains time in the corners. What is not taken into account here, however, is that there will still be some change in the SF-23 in terms of downforce. The new rear wing, which Ferrari says is a "project," seems to aim to make up for the lack of downforce on the rear axle compared to Red Bull with comparatively minimal gains in drag. If the front axle can be compensated accordingly, I think it doesn't look too bad that Ferrari retains a minimal advantage in top speed, but hardly loses anything in the corners.

This would also explain the confidence that prevailed after the tests and the relaxed mood after qualifying, which is in complete contrast to the suddenly emerging rumors about correlation issues and the statements made so far. Whereas everything fits together when you have achieved your goals and are aerodynamically very efficient and "only" need to complete a project to find the last points of downforce, knowing that this only reduces the advantage you have in terms of top speed to the extent that you are still faster, even if only minimally. The efficiency of the SF23 can be seen on this telemetry :

Image

Also that Leclerc often can go on the throttle earlier than Verstappen is encouraging.

Of course this is a speculation and a theory of mine, but if you take the facts, the statements of the engineers and the behavior of the whole team as a basis, a quite plausible and logical one. If they had actually correlated issues, which with a gap of 3 tenths to the excellent Red Bull and the fact that they have the second best car anyway sounds more like a joke, they would hardly be as relieved and confident as they were after qualifying.

Finally, the race today will finally reveal many question marks for us. It will be crucial if Ferrari has already overcome its biggest weakness with the SF-23. The longrun data itself (see yesterday's post) suggests that at least Leclerc's car is expected to show a strong improvement. However, this looked quite different with Sainz and the Red Bull, Aston Martin and Mercedes engineers rather predict that Ferrari will have strong problems. The driver has a very important role when it comes to tire desgradation. A race tire goes through various heat cycles during a race. Generally, a tire becomes harder after each heat cycle. Experienced drivers take good care of their tires and try not to let them build up too much heat. A more evenly heated tire goes through fewer heat cycles and maintains its optimal grip for a longer time. But also on the part of the tire manufacturers is already taken precautions here. A new racing tire, unlike cars on a normal road car, is not fully cured. Because of the extreme heat to which the tire is exposed, tire manufacturers leave parts of the curing process to the racers. If a fully cured tire were taken to the track, the tire would be much harder from the start, with corresponding effects on grip and lap times. Tire engineers understand that heat changes the rubber compound of the tire, so they plan ahead for the curing process to take place on the track. This is one of many reasons why race tires are much softer than normal tires and the driver has the task and control over how the tire is cured and how much it cures or stays in an optimal grip range. But other things also have an important influence. A racing tires actual compound softness when its in action is only partly to do with the base softness resulting from its ingredients. The other two main determinants are the tires temperature and the contact frequency. These work in opposite directions. When the temperature rises the compound becomes softer, when contact frequencies rises the compound becomes harder. The suspension is the tool that influences that and also is the tool to bring the tire to its optimum state, called vitreous transition. But its a delicate balancing act. Contact frequency is about how the loads react upon the rubber, what is not consistent becauser rubber is viscoelastic material. Up to a point the rubber will accept the incoming energy and react against it, trying to spring back in the opposite direction of the load and thereby creating grip. Beyond that point the rubber cannot regain shape quickly enough to absorb the next input. The contact frequencies get to high. This has the effect of stiffening and hardening the compound. The higher the contact frequency, the more temperature you need to compensate in order to keep the tire at its intended compound softness. So there are quite a few different influences and mechanisms that play a role here and I'm curious if the SF-23 and its drivers (both play a role, car and driver) work better here.

It also remains to be seen to what extent the Red Bull will be ahead in race pace. I wish everyone a lot of fun and am curious what will turn out. But I think that the SF-23 has great potential and can make bigger steps than the RB19.

Edit : very interesting interview with Jock Clear that suggests that the SF-23 has improved in the right areas and is closer to the RB19 than one might think.

https://scuderiafans.com/ferrari-team-e ... ine-power/
Last edited by Andi76 on 05 Mar 2023, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.

wowgr8
29
Joined: 11 Feb 2020, 20:35

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 04:31
I saw an interesting tweet on my timeline. A screen from an user on IG which is making analysis on telemetry. He is saying that Charles has completely changed his driving style to adapt to the SF 23.. Specifically, according to him, he is not trail braking any more in the corners, and he is braking much earlier overall, having a lower minimum speed in the entry of the corners to minimize understeering, getting better traction and thus achieving a better top speed in the straights. According to him, it's possible to see this even compared to Sainz.
Could you link this?

User avatar
organic
948
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Telemetry thread 2023

Post

Would I be able to request telemetry on Ocon Vs Norris from q2? Please

User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Telemetry thread 2023

Post

organic wrote:
05 Mar 2023, 12:44
Would I be able to request telemetry on Ocon Vs Norris from q2? Please
here's a snippet
Image

but really, you can get all this easily from https://www.f1-tempo.com/ .Telemetry becomes available very early after any session.

User avatar
organic
948
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Telemetry thread 2023

Post

Thanks! I will remember that for next time cheers

From the telemetry I would say that alpine and McLaren cars are not far apart at Bahrain. Promising for McLaren in fight in midfield