Silly season 2024-2025

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Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:04 pm
djos wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:43 am
ME4ME wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:33 am
He wasn't doing too well against Verstappen so panicked and went too extreme with the setup in the hope of finding a unicorn.

I don't think they said he was difficult to work with. I think Gasly said he felt a lack of support, and in all honesty he had a less experienced race engineer. But ultimately he just lacked pace and panicked.

What I find interesting is how he compares to Ocon, who people do say is diffucult to work with.

Ocon lost out to both Ricciardo and to Perez over a season. So now Red Bull is contemplating to replace one Ocon-beater with another. But then Ocon redeemed himself in matching Alonso last year.
I knew there were some comments around somewhere, and I found them:
Gasly’s all-round approach was not always popular at Red Bull, where he was reckoned to be too obsessed with small details such as making multiple seats, chasing the set-up for specific corners rather than focusing on the ‘global’ compromise for the lap, not adapting to the dynamics demands of the car and not taking direction well.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/why-red- ... asly-back/

Not a good look, little wonder they happily let him leave for Alpine.
Sounds like they think he was too ignorant and lacked the way of thinking and approach they expect and require for their level.
Doesn't sound ignorant at all. Sounds like someone who wants to get the best he can from his car. That he didn't fit in to a team with a very particular MO is a different issue, however. Reminiscent of Eddie Irvine at Ferrari who was constantly fighting the engineers who wouldn't let him set up the car how he wanted.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

gshevlin
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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Doesn't sound ignorant at all. Sounds like someone who wants to get the best he can from his car. That he didn't fit in to a team with a very particular MO is a different issue, however. Reminiscent of Eddie Irvine at Ferrari who was constantly fighting the engineers who wouldn't let him set up the car how he wanted.
Eddie Irvine's issue at Ferrari was and is not a new one. Teams with a great #1 driver (McLaren in the Prost and Senna eras, Ferrari in the Schumacher era) had cars not only set up, they were designed around that driver's preferences. Setting up the car for Irvine was not compatible with the approach of having Schumacher as the #1 and having Irvine as his tail-gunner. They simply wanted Irvine to finish high enough and take points from the other teams to make the Constructors championship certain. Same for Rubens Barrichello. In return for being paid very well, they were expected to defer to Schumacher.
Keke Rosberg said in later interviews that John Barnard did not want to work with him at McLaren to set the car up in 1986 the way that he wanted it (Prost was an understeering driver, Rosberg liked oversteer), except at one test session where they did dial out the understeer, and then he was suddenly as quick as Prost.
Additionally, some drivers do demand set-ups that make no engineering sense, and then they can get into head-butting competitions with the team and the engineers. Patrick Head and Jacques Villeneuve butted heads during his time at Williams because Villeneuve wanted to set the car up very stiff, which Head regarded as illogical. It was a repeat of the Thierry Boutsen era, where Boutsen wanted a very stiff car with a low ride height. When Nigel Mansell showed up for his first Williams test in 1990, he tried the car, swiftly declared it "undriveable", they changed everything, and within 2 hours he was nearly 2 seconds a lap quicker.
It can go the other way also. When Benetton hired Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger for 1996 to replace Michael Schumacher and Johnny Herbert, both drivers showed up at the first winter test and drove the Schumacher car, and they both found it almost undriveable - it was way too pointy.
It sounds like Gasly was butting heads with the engineers quite a bit during his time at AT. Having said that, the disarray at the start of the season in that team, with Franz Tost opening throwing the engineers under the bus, might be a symptom of a larger issue that affected Gasly during his time with the team.

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djos
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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ringo wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:04 pm
djos wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:43 am
I knew there were some comments around somewhere, and I found them:
Gasly’s all-round approach was not always popular at Red Bull, where he was reckoned to be too obsessed with small details such as making multiple seats, chasing the set-up for specific corners rather than focusing on the ‘global’ compromise for the lap, not adapting to the dynamics demands of the car and not taking direction well.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/why-red- ... asly-back/

Not a good look, little wonder they happily let him leave for Alpine.
Sounds like they think he was too ignorant and lacked the way of thinking and approach they expect and require for their level.
He sounds like a prima donna personality to me - I wonder he thought he could take his top dog attitude from AT to RBR. Pretty silly seeing as Max was clearly top dog at RBR.
"In downforce we trust"

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djos
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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lol, the posters at the Hungarian GP and the memes are hilarious!

https://apple.news/ACgxJoV7bTqOXEps8c2lpaA

Image

Putting the slowest car on the grid in P13 with hardly anytime in the car, is a great way to flip the bird at the doubters.
"In downforce we trust"

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stephen
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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The one team's performance I am really looking forward to is "AlphaTauri" after the news came a few days ago that they'll be driving a copy of the Red Bull RB19 in 2024.
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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So being Lewis has not signed yet and Lando might move on, will Lewis go back to Mclaren and win his final championship ?
Never argue with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and beat you every time.

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chrisc90
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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Still amazed this Lewis contract is taking so long to solve given they both want to be there.
For what was meant to be something straightforward, there seems to be something getting in the way of that signature

NL_Fer
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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Wasn’t this the same with Lewis in 2020 where he didn’t sign till just before pre-season testing?

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:17 pm
Still amazed this Lewis contract is taking so long to solve given they both want to be there.
For what was meant to be something straightforward, there seems to be something getting in the way of that signature
According to Toto it's not about money, so it must be about things such as how much time he has to give to corporate sponsor events, etc.. There was also talk about him wanting an on-going Mercedes ambassador role when he retires, but I'd be amazed if he risked his contract talks over that.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

AR3-GP
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:14 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:17 pm
Still amazed this Lewis contract is taking so long to solve given they both want to be there.
For what was meant to be something straightforward, there seems to be something getting in the way of that signature
According to Toto it's not about money, so it must be about things such as how much time he has to give to corporate sponsor events, etc.. There was also talk about him wanting an on-going Mercedes ambassador role when he retires, but I'd be amazed if he risked his contract talks over that.
“No, we’re not talking about an ambassadorial role post his retirement, nor is that part of the contract negotiations,” he told media, including PlanetF1.com, during the Belgian GP weekend.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... elgian-gp/

I also doubt it's about media time either. That stuff tends to be cookie cutter.

It's more likely to be the rather obvious point. Is this team showing progression? Am I wasting my time? This is Lewis's way to put pressure on the team to improve the car. Toto also said "we are doing everything to make him stay". Hamilton talked about how the team didn't listen to him with the car design, and keeps saying publically that he wants them to build a RB (which they apparently still are not doing).

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chrisc90
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:14 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:17 pm
Still amazed this Lewis contract is taking so long to solve given they both want to be there.
For what was meant to be something straightforward, there seems to be something getting in the way of that signature
According to Toto it's not about money, so it must be about things such as how much time he has to give to corporate sponsor events, etc.. There was also talk about him wanting an on-going Mercedes ambassador role when he retires, but I'd be amazed if he risked his contract talks over that.
“No, we’re not talking about an ambassadorial role post his retirement, nor is that part of the contract negotiations,” he told media, including PlanetF1.com, during the Belgian GP weekend.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... elgian-gp/

I also doubt it's about media time either. That stuff tends to be cookie cutter.

It's more likely to be the rather obvious point. Is this team showing progression? Am I wasting my time? This is Lewis's way to put pressure on the team to improve the car. Toto also said "we are doing everything to make him stay". Hamilton talked about how the team didn't listen to him with the car design, and keeps saying publicly that he wants them to build a RB (which they apparently still are not doing).
Lewis turned round and said the McLaren looks like a Red Bull. Yet to see any resemblance there.

I mean if its all because Merc haven't give him a car that isn't capable of putting it on the top step of the podium then it seems a bit of a 'bitter' way to try and negotiate a contract. Maybe there's a BIG win/podium bonus attached to his contract and it hasn't been paying. I cant see the likes of Verstappen and Lewis getting 40million a year if they always finishing 4th or 5th each season. I dare bet that 40million is made up of win bonuses etc. Say a base contract of 20million a year, and the remaining 20million is split between 20-odd races each season.

AR3-GP
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:47 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:14 pm

According to Toto it's not about money, so it must be about things such as how much time he has to give to corporate sponsor events, etc.. There was also talk about him wanting an on-going Mercedes ambassador role when he retires, but I'd be amazed if he risked his contract talks over that.
“No, we’re not talking about an ambassadorial role post his retirement, nor is that part of the contract negotiations,” he told media, including PlanetF1.com, during the Belgian GP weekend.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... elgian-gp/

I also doubt it's about media time either. That stuff tends to be cookie cutter.

It's more likely to be the rather obvious point. Is this team showing progression? Am I wasting my time? This is Lewis's way to put pressure on the team to improve the car. Toto also said "we are doing everything to make him stay". Hamilton talked about how the team didn't listen to him with the car design, and keeps saying publicly that he wants them to build a RB (which they apparently still are not doing).
Lewis turned round and said the McLaren looks like a Red Bull. Yet to see any resemblance there.

I mean if its all because Merc haven't give him a car that isn't capable of putting it on the top step of the podium then it seems a bit of a 'bitter' way to try and negotiate a contract. Maybe there's a BIG win/podium bonus attached to his contract and it hasn't been paying. I cant see the likes of Verstappen and Lewis getting 40million a year if they always finishing 4th or 5th each season. I dare bet that 40million is made up of win bonuses etc. Say a base contract of 20million a year, and the remaining 20million is split between 20-odd races each season.
I don't think it's bitter at this point. If he was in the start of his career, maybe, but he's clearly only continuing for more titles. Just like Alonso. Neither of them are still here with 38+ with the sole ambition to drive in the midfield.
Last edited by AR3-GP on Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:47 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:14 pm

According to Toto it's not about money, so it must be about things such as how much time he has to give to corporate sponsor events, etc.. There was also talk about him wanting an on-going Mercedes ambassador role when he retires, but I'd be amazed if he risked his contract talks over that.
“No, we’re not talking about an ambassadorial role post his retirement, nor is that part of the contract negotiations,” he told media, including PlanetF1.com, during the Belgian GP weekend.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... elgian-gp/

I also doubt it's about media time either. That stuff tends to be cookie cutter.

It's more likely to be the rather obvious point. Is this team showing progression? Am I wasting my time? This is Lewis's way to put pressure on the team to improve the car. Toto also said "we are doing everything to make him stay". Hamilton talked about how the team didn't listen to him with the car design, and keeps saying publicly that he wants them to build a RB (which they apparently still are not doing).
Lewis turned round and said the McLaren looks like a Red Bull. Yet to see any resemblance there.

I mean if its all because Merc haven't give him a car that isn't capable of putting it on the top step of the podium then it seems a bit of a 'bitter' way to try and negotiate a contract. Maybe there's a BIG win/podium bonus attached to his contract and it hasn't been paying. I cant see the likes of Verstappen and Lewis getting 40million a year if they always finishing 4th or 5th each season. I dare bet that 40million is made up of win bonuses etc. Say a base contract of 20million a year, and the remaining 20million is split between 20-odd races each season.
He was on base salary + result bonus before, I believe he wanted to go to "all in the salary" as there hasn't been much result bonus available. That's going to be talking point for lots of reasons.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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chrisc90
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:53 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 5:47 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:42 pm



https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... elgian-gp/

I also doubt it's about media time either. That stuff tends to be cookie cutter.

It's more likely to be the rather obvious point. Is this team showing progression? Am I wasting my time? This is Lewis's way to put pressure on the team to improve the car. Toto also said "we are doing everything to make him stay". Hamilton talked about how the team didn't listen to him with the car design, and keeps saying publicly that he wants them to build a RB (which they apparently still are not doing).
Lewis turned round and said the McLaren looks like a Red Bull. Yet to see any resemblance there.

I mean if its all because Merc haven't give him a car that isn't capable of putting it on the top step of the podium then it seems a bit of a 'bitter' way to try and negotiate a contract. Maybe there's a BIG win/podium bonus attached to his contract and it hasn't been paying. I cant see the likes of Verstappen and Lewis getting 40million a year if they always finishing 4th or 5th each season. I dare bet that 40million is made up of win bonuses etc. Say a base contract of 20million a year, and the remaining 20million is split between 20-odd races each season.
He was on base salary + result bonus before, I believe he wanted to go to "all in the salary" as there hasn't been much result bonus available. That's going to be talking point for lots of reasons.
Likely the sticking point. The article someone posted before in the Merc thread? said that Toto and Lewis use that 'Penny' as they dont like talking money between friends.
So it would seem, in my opinion, that Mercedes aren't going to be paying top dollar for a driver that's not putting it on the top step of the podium any more. Toto/Merc might have said, Look Lewis, we aren't getting the wins, as the cars not properly competitive with Red Bull, so we dont think your worth the £40million/year to finish P4-6 with the occasional podium thrown in the mix. George is on £8m/year and Lewis near enough 5x that amount. Its a lot to spend on a driver getting an occasional podium over the last 2 seasons. Of course there's the fan base and budget the marketing brings aswell from Lewis.

Tough one - clearly Lewis isn't happy with the offer Mercedes have come back with - which is going to be based marginally on the results the team are having. Lewis thinks i'm worth this much, Mercedes say X amount less. Makes perfect sense if he wanted to move away from base + results style to a full salary. As irrespective of whether he come first or 10th all season, he would get the same money being on a 'all in' contract.

Thing is....who would want to pay £40million/year for Lewis. That's the big question. Only the likes of Ferrari - but I cant see them spending twice what they paying Charles for Lewis coming to the end of his career.

AR3-GP
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Re: Silly season 2024-2025

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Is george on 8m a year? That's a steal. Poor guy got roped in for pennies on the dollar :lol: . He should be 14-15m at least.