2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Seanspeed
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 10:13 pm
I really don't understand all these comments saying McLaren have gained 4 tenths.
Not even McLaren can say that based on one weekend, a sprint weekend at that and on a less than representative track.
What they have really gained will only be revealed over a number of weekends.
Them being x amount behind RBR or Ferrari then being x amount in front as measured in Miami means nothing.
The same reason people bought the idea that the Ferrari upgrade would be worth 2.5 tenths - one person on the internet said so. So it must be true!

Seanspeed
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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bananapeel23 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 9:58 pm
I guess what I meant is that it doesn't have any obvious fundamental flaws that have shown up. The Red Bull and McLaren cars appear to be setup princesses in comparison. They have both shown pretty significant performance highs and lows. Sometimes they struggle with tyre wear, sometimes with traction, sometimes with snap oversteer or understeer. Ferrari has been constantly good, but never exceptional.

What I mean to say is that it has been a reliable workhorse at every type of track it has been at so far. Surely that must give Ferrari a lot of confidence to chase pure performance across the board, rather than widening the setup window or ironing out fundamental flaws like tyre wear, which may only benefit them at certain tracks.

Then again, we said the same things about Aston Martin last season because the car seemed to be such a reliable platform and the package seemed to be really conservative. Everyone believed that it would be an easy platform to upgrade and squeeze performance out of, which turned out to be far from the truth.

Still I believe that cars that tend to be solid and predictable everywhere are generally easier to upgrade than temperamental cars like the W13 or F1-75 (post TD39).
I think it might be exaggerating to say the Red Bull has been a 'setup princess'. And if you do want to count Red Bull as a finicky car, I think it goes against what you're saying, as they are clearly in a better position having a car with higher peak potential.

Really, all this is impossible to say. Ferrari's car may not have any disastrous weaknesses, but whether the fundamentals are able to be improved into a winning level car(on merit) is yet to be seen and not at all guaranteed. Sometimes core concepts just have limits without more radical changes. Part of the intrigue of this season is seeing where this car can go, and now we seem like we'll have a genuine fight for at least 2nd in the WCC as well. Back to the old Mclaren rivalry!

Emag
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 10:13 pm
I really don't understand all these comments saying McLaren have gained 4 tenths.
Not even McLaren can say that based on one weekend, a sprint weekend at that and on a less than representative track.
What they have really gained will only be revealed over a number of weekends.
Them being x amount behind RBR or Ferrari then being x amount in front as measured in Miami means nothing.
I don't know how people pulled that number. It's been a while now that there are no good sources when it comes to McLaren and the fact that it came from an Italian one is a bit weird.

Feels like they just assumed it would be that much based on previous gaps, but to be fair McLaren was also faster than Ferrari in China (for temp-related reasons, but anyway).

It just seems weird that anyone from McLaren was gonna speak with italian journalists specifically about numbers. Sure, Andrea Stella is Italian, but I feel like the guy would be the last to drop real numbers like these.

Macklaren
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Feels like most of the "we gained XX secs" from a package is usually benchmarked vs a Barcelona lap so let's see when we get there

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Emag wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 10:26 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 10:13 pm
I really don't understand all these comments saying McLaren have gained 4 tenths.
Not even McLaren can say that based on one weekend, a sprint weekend at that and on a less than representative track.
What they have really gained will only be revealed over a number of weekends.
Them being x amount behind RBR or Ferrari then being x amount in front as measured in Miami means nothing.
I don't know how people pulled that number. It's been a while now that there are no good sources when it comes to McLaren and the fact that it came from an Italian one is a bit weird.

Feels like they just assumed it would be that much based on previous gaps, but to be fair McLaren was also faster than Ferrari in China (for temp-related reasons, but anyway).

It just seems weird that anyone from McLaren was gonna speak with italian journalists specifically about numbers. Sure, Andrea Stella is Italian, but I feel like the guy would be the last to drop real numbers like these.
The thing is, even if it came directly from Stella he wouldn't know what it's truly worth at this stage.
They'll obviously have an expected range but that's all it'll be, the track will ultimately decide what it's truly worth and it will only reveal that over a number of weekends...

For all we know McLaren expected something in the region of a 3/4 tenths gain, just because the data from Miami suggest it is 4 doesn't make it so.
Over a number of weekends on different track and temperatures the real number could prove to be only 2.5 tenths.

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langedweil
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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I feel like Imola as a normal weekend will just be a disappointment with a completely restored order. I do not really buy into the hype, as much as I would like it.
HuggaWugga !

Fakepivot
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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not sure why we should expect them to be no1 with this upgrade, I prefer to see slow and Stady progress, better than fluke wins. if this upgrade puts them close to red bull and ahead of mclaren then by all means its a success.

Chaoz
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 10:13 pm
I really don't understand all these comments saying McLaren have gained 4 tenths.
Not even McLaren can say that based on one weekend, a sprint weekend at that and on a less than representative track.
What they have really gained will only be revealed over a number of weekends.
Them being x amount behind RBR or Ferrari then being x amount in front as measured in Miami means nothing.
Exactly what I thought.
Red Bull was in Miami not as strong as usual.
In the first stint, Norris catched up to Sainz, yes, but he would have never gained enough to overtake in my opinion.
Than McLaren got gifted a Safety Car and surprise, surprise, Norris was able to gap the field on fresh, new tires.

I'm excited for Imola. I really, really hope that the Ferrari update does exactly what the simulation says. Than we have very exciting races ahead of us.

Sphere3758
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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I believe the number came from Brown and Stella. They claimed that Oscar had around 50% of the upgrades and was missing around 2 tenths of raw performance compared to Lando.

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deadhead
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Sphere3758 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 7:50 am
I believe the number came from Brown and Stella. They claimed that Oscar had around 50% of the upgrades and was missing around 2 tenths of raw performance compared to Lando.
Yes, the 4 tenth estimate came from that They solved some of their main issues, so hopefully Ferrari can do the same.

Cs98
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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bananapeel23 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 7:47 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 5:44 pm
LM10 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 5:18 pm


The floor generates like what, 80% of the overall downforce? There’s absolutely no way to predict any gains by simply looking at the changes on the outside.

Having said that, the visual upgrades are significant in my opinion. The inlet was never going to turn into a letterbox inlet given the completely different cooling layout of the Ferrari compared to others. Overbite combined with a P-shaped inlet making use of the already existing S-duct is as much as can be expected for a in-season upgrade package.
The upgrades are significant but they are clearly an evolution. Finding 4 tenths through one evolutionary in season upgrade is incredibly difficult. Macca did it last week but if you go down the list of components they changed you'll see that they hit basically everything. Front wing, suspension front and rear, floor, sidepod inlets, sidepod body, engine cover, coke bottle, beam wing, brake cooling inlets. The lot, and substantial changes too, not just tinkering a bit. Brand new front wing, brand new floor etc. That was 4 tenths (we think), and clearly making up for the lack of upgrades on the launch spec McL. Ferrari's launch spec was a far bigger step from the SF-23, and from what we've seen so far the upgrade is not as extensive as the Macca IMO. And then you had the Italian media for a long time saying they were expecting 2-3 tenths before they suddenly changed their tune and increased that as we got closer, is that genuine or just a bit of extra hype so that the same outlets can sell you the same story twice? Who knows. I am expecting 2-3 tenths, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was slightly more or less, you never know for sure until they race.
McLaren had issues that needed to be rectified before they could start going after outright performance. A lot of the work they put into the upgrade package was probably not aimed at outright performance, but rather at addressing issues that have popped up at certain tracks, like tyre wear or a narrow setup window. Only after they solved those issues could they chase outright performance.

Ferrari doesn't have that issue. They have the most mild-tempered car of all this season. The thing is insanely kind on its tyres, appears to have a massive setup window, has worked on every track so far and appears to have no significant weaknesses. It's a great car with no weaknesses to iron out before they can start chasing performance.

That means the Ferrari upgrades are in all likelihood simply focused on increasing downforce and losing drag, which is a luxury McLaren didn't have. As such even a smaller upgrade can yield similar performance gains, as they don't have to focus on anything other than pure performance. Ferrari didn't need a revolution, they needed an evolution.
Upgrades are always about "fixing issues". The bigger the issue usually the more time there is to gain, see McLaren last year. But the idea that the launch spec McLaren was some notorious problem child is not true. They dealt with most of their major issues last season already, so it was already a good car. They just made it better by solving smaller issues and adding performance. There may even be something to be said for the theory that a car with issues is easier to find big performance gains with. Because there's an obvious development path whereas a car with no obvious weakness the development becomes much more incremental. A tenth here and a tenth there but rarely will you find 4 tenths of pure performance in one go.

Sphere3758
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Regarding the race engineer change for Leclerc, do you think it is him choosing not to go for Adami next year and trial someone else ?

There is a chance that Lewis will bring his own race engineer next year. If one of Xavi or Adami had to make way, I would guess it would be Xavi.

Sevach
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Sphere3758 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 3:37 pm
Regarding the race engineer change for Leclerc, do you think it is him choosing not to go for Adami next year and trial someone else ?

There is a chance that Lewis will bring his own race engineer next year. If one of Xavi or Adami had to make way, I would guess it would be Xavi.
I think he finally decided to say that the relationship with Xavi wasn't working, and the team acquiesced.
Ricky is in line to work with Hamilton.
I don't think it holds any effect on this situation.

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bananapeel23
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Cs98 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 9:01 am
bananapeel23 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 7:47 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 5:44 pm

The upgrades are significant but they are clearly an evolution. Finding 4 tenths through one evolutionary in season upgrade is incredibly difficult. Macca did it last week but if you go down the list of components they changed you'll see that they hit basically everything. Front wing, suspension front and rear, floor, sidepod inlets, sidepod body, engine cover, coke bottle, beam wing, brake cooling inlets. The lot, and substantial changes too, not just tinkering a bit. Brand new front wing, brand new floor etc. That was 4 tenths (we think), and clearly making up for the lack of upgrades on the launch spec McL. Ferrari's launch spec was a far bigger step from the SF-23, and from what we've seen so far the upgrade is not as extensive as the Macca IMO. And then you had the Italian media for a long time saying they were expecting 2-3 tenths before they suddenly changed their tune and increased that as we got closer, is that genuine or just a bit of extra hype so that the same outlets can sell you the same story twice? Who knows. I am expecting 2-3 tenths, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was slightly more or less, you never know for sure until they race.
McLaren had issues that needed to be rectified before they could start going after outright performance. A lot of the work they put into the upgrade package was probably not aimed at outright performance, but rather at addressing issues that have popped up at certain tracks, like tyre wear or a narrow setup window. Only after they solved those issues could they chase outright performance.

Ferrari doesn't have that issue. They have the most mild-tempered car of all this season. The thing is insanely kind on its tyres, appears to have a massive setup window, has worked on every track so far and appears to have no significant weaknesses. It's a great car with no weaknesses to iron out before they can start chasing performance.

That means the Ferrari upgrades are in all likelihood simply focused on increasing downforce and losing drag, which is a luxury McLaren didn't have. As such even a smaller upgrade can yield similar performance gains, as they don't have to focus on anything other than pure performance. Ferrari didn't need a revolution, they needed an evolution.
Upgrades are always about "fixing issues". The bigger the issue usually the more time there is to gain, see McLaren last year. But the idea that the launch spec McLaren was some notorious problem child is not true. They dealt with most of their major issues last season already, so it was already a good car. They just made it better by solving smaller issues and adding performance. There may even be something to be said for the theory that a car with issues is easier to find big performance gains with. Because there's an obvious development path whereas a car with no obvious weakness the development becomes much more incremental. A tenth here and a tenth there but rarely will you find 4 tenths of pure performance in one go.
The idea I'm trying to push is that "issue-correcting" upgrades are often more of a track-specific type of upgrade. At some tracks those issues might not cause any issues, at others they may completely ruin your weekend. That means that upgrades aimed at resolving something like bottoming or excessive tyre wear might yield 5 tenths at some tracks, and do nothing at others. They aren't pure performance upgrades that translate well to every track. Sometimes you may even have to sacrifice some peak performance to resolve those issues.

Upgrades that aren't aimed at resolving issues like those above are obviously going to be easier to squeeze performance out of, since there are no other design considerations than outright performance. If you have great car balance and a great suspension setup with a large setup window, you don't have to account for your car slipping out of the setup window if you improve floor efficiency or alter the aero balance ever so slightly for overall efficiency.

Obviously the reality is far more complex and there are certainly tradeoffs going on even at Ferrari, but obviously it's going to be easier to squeeze performance out of something that is predictable and compliant at every track than something that varies from track to track.

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bananapeel23
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Sphere3758 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 3:37 pm
Regarding the race engineer change for Leclerc, do you think it is him choosing not to go for Adami next year and trial someone else ?

There is a chance that Lewis will bring his own race engineer next year. If one of Xavi or Adami had to make way, I would guess it would be Xavi.
I don't know if I'd put too much stock in Xavi leaving having anything to do with broader strategy or Lewis. I think people pay too much attention to him becuase he sometimes sounds stupid and produces some of the most unintentionally funny radio messages. Xavi is in all likelihood a very competent employee that Leclerc likes and wanted to continue working with, he almost certainly wasn't shuffled around because he was incompetent or worked poorly with Leclerc. Remember that Leclerc always defended him.

Also, aren't race engineers considered very senior employees? They get promoted all the time, which is likely what happened with Xavi.

I think it was simply a case of Xavi getting a good job offer in another part of the company and choosing to leave, with no broader strategic implications behind the decision.