2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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taperoo2k wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2024 1:54 am
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 11:17 pm
taperoo2k wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:01 pm


That's pretty much what I've been trying to say for a while now. Lando has a lot to learn in terms of handling the pressure of a title fight, when to drive with caution and when to get ruthless. Max, Lewis and Alonso know how to do that.

I think Oscar has improved a lot over last season, sure he's made some mistakes. But he's also had some sublime drives as well. My hope remains that McLaren will win the constructors this season. I always thought the drivers title was a long shot given Max's points advantage.

If it's Lando or Oscar leading the drivers title standings next season? I'll cheer both of them on. McLaren first and foremost.
Well there's two contrasting opinions in there, which is why I thought it was a decent read. One suggesting that Lando will learn and grow, from DC, and EJ saying that Lando hasn't ever demonstrated that he can ever be on Maxs level and therefore he thinks he won't step up.
Lando doesn't need to be on Max's level. He just has to perfect his own driving style and be smarter in how he approaches Max. Max is beatable, Lewis almost managed it in 2021.
Pretty sure Lando will learn a lot from this season.
It doesn't mean be like Max, it means drive to his level of ability, or close. Brakes were not the difference at Brazil though they won't have helped, there's just a gulf in class and ability. Some think he can close that gap, some don't.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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BMMR61
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Mental strength is what Max has. It's been bred into him from the start. I don't want to elaborate because some people will take it the wrong way. Since he settled down I quite like Max, his straightforward way of answering displays that inner strength. The downside which you really can't separate from this (they're part and parcel of the same) is his unwillingness to concede, whether it driving or talking. If you're going to take on Max you have to be strong, very strong. Lando isn't, could learn but seems unwilling or uninterested in mental work. His talent is beyond question, he's very fast and smooth, but he gets rattled. He kept on, on the radio in Brazil GP about the tyres. This fidgety way of thinking just won't work under the blowtorch of high level competition. Personally, I'd send Mika, or even Emmo down there to spend time with him but I doubt he'd listen.

Oscar has it, the Australian style of mental toughness, more in the style of an Alan Jones or even Jack Brabham. Uncomplicated, keep stacking away the learnings race by race. He's just as talented as Lando in my opinion, it's just that these cars and tyres are a tough thing to fully decode, even Lewis struggles.

E8404424
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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BMMR61 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:15 am
Mental strength is what Max has. It's been bred into him from the start. I don't want to elaborate because some people will take it the wrong way. Since he settled down I quite like Max, his straightforward way of answering displays that inner strength. The downside which you really can't separate from this (they're part and parcel of the same) is his unwillingness to concede, whether it driving or talking. If you're going to take on Max you have to be strong, very strong. Lando isn't, could learn but seems unwilling or uninterested in mental work. His talent is beyond question, he's very fast and smooth, but he gets rattled. He kept on, on the radio in Brazil GP about the tyres. This fidgety way of thinking just won't work under the blowtorch of high level competition. Personally, I'd send Mika, or even Emmo down there to spend time with him but I doubt he'd listen.

Oscar has it, the Australian style of mental toughness, more in the style of an Alan Jones or even Jack Brabham. Uncomplicated, keep stacking away the learnings race by race. He's just as talented as Lando in my opinion, it's just that these cars and tyres are a tough thing to fully decode, even Lewis struggles.
Your argument makes little sense.

According to you Lando is not mentally strong, but Oscar is. He has one less win than Lando, is being outqualfied 18-3, outraced 14-7, beaten on podiums 12-7, 7-0 on Pole Positions and is 70 points behind, according to you, the less mentally strong Lando with one more finish.

Ah, you may say but Oscar is only in his second season. Fair point. Lando is in his sixth season and has only been beaten by a team mate over a season once, that was his rookie year. Four of the last five years has him beating Australian drivers, who apprently have mental toughness built in, to do it. And his record against Carlos, in his second season is good. He beat him 8-7 in qualy, 8-7 in races and they had a podium each. So Oscar is not doing in his second season what Lando did in his.

Ah, but you may say that Lando has six seasons behind him. Fair point. But only three of those are in the current regs. Lando has one more season than Oscar driving these cars. Thats not a significant level of experience more. Oscar is two seasons in, the "he's still learning argument" doesn't cut it anymore. It can be argued that if Oscar had been closer to Lando all year McLarens grip on the Constructors would be a lot firmer right now.

Lando gets rattled ?? .. Maybe sometimes. Not holding him back when it comes to beating the mental Australian giant that is apparently Oscar Piastri though. And being the only driver to have a chance of taking the title from Max. And lets not forget that the apparently ice cool Oscar went off from the lead in Hungary under zero pressure and arguably cost himself a win in Spa by overshooting his pitbox on the final pit stop. He then rocked up in Monza and promptly helped LeClerc win the race by putting a good move, and it was a really good opportunistic move, on his team mate that ultimately cost the team. Lando is winning races by twenty seconds plus over everyone. Oscar was let through in Hungary while Lando was faster on older tyres and he barely held on in Baku while having to have Lando help him by holding up Perez, even Oscar admits that. Lando was back in 15th that day only because of a yellow flag.

Lando gets pulled up for losing places at the start. That's a fair point but the starts have got better through the year and there is also the second phase to consider. His reactions are up there with everyone else, it seems to be the second phase that is a problem, and that's car territory. Oscar gets praised fror making positions on Lando, not really difficult that when you are always starting to behind your team mate. This is the first time Lando has had to step up and challenge Max, in a year where no one expected him to, and that's a learning curve. Six months ago he hadn't won a race. Right now its still mathematically possible to win the title. Big leap that. Its funny how some people are keen on making out Oscar is still learning after two years and we should give him time while also giving Lando zero slack for being in his first title fight, apparently he is just "bottling" everything.

Oscar HAS to AT LEAST match Lando next year because the honeymoon is over. Zak Brown did a podcast with High Performance just after Daniel left the team. Zak stated that the next contract would have performance clauses in it, if Oscar isn't at least matching Lando next year then questions may start being asked. Getting Number One status is one thing, keeping it is another. You have to perform.

If Lando has struggled this year it's not really a surprise. You are beating your team mate but your team tells you publicly that you cannot win a Championship without your team mate while berating you on the radio for not wanting to give up a win after they put you in the lead. Refuses to publicly back you for the Drivers Title. Then your team principal says at Monza that the guy your'e beating "is the future" and now, after Brazil,says that actually, the drivers title was never really our focus. All in a team you stuck with because you believed in them, while turning down offers from the team that was winning everything at the time.

Yeah, I'd be doubting myself and my decisions a little bit too.

Waz
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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You've conflated results with mental toughness or decision making abilities.

It's not the same, and your results on paper lack context anyway.

The comparison between Oscar and Lando's decision making is very clear to see during races.

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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E8404424 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:41 am
BMMR61 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 5:15 am
Mental strength is what Max has. It's been bred into him from the start. I don't want to elaborate because some people will take it the wrong way. Since he settled down I quite like Max, his straightforward way of answering displays that inner strength. The downside which you really can't separate from this (they're part and parcel of the same) is his unwillingness to concede, whether it driving or talking. If you're going to take on Max you have to be strong, very strong. Lando isn't, could learn but seems unwilling or uninterested in mental work. His talent is beyond question, he's very fast and smooth, but he gets rattled. He kept on, on the radio in Brazil GP about the tyres. This fidgety way of thinking just won't work under the blowtorch of high level competition. Personally, I'd send Mika, or even Emmo down there to spend time with him but I doubt he'd listen.

Oscar has it, the Australian style of mental toughness, more in the style of an Alan Jones or even Jack Brabham. Uncomplicated, keep stacking away the learnings race by race. He's just as talented as Lando in my opinion, it's just that these cars and tyres are a tough thing to fully decode, even Lewis struggles.
Your argument makes little sense.

According to you Lando is not mentally strong, but Oscar is. He has one less win than Lando, is being outqualfied 18-3, outraced 14-7, beaten on podiums 12-7, 7-0 on Pole Positions and is 70 points behind, according to you, the less mentally strong Lando with one more finish.

Ah, you may say but Oscar is only in his second season. Fair point. Lando is in his sixth season and has only been beaten by a team mate over a season once, that was his rookie year. Four of the last five years has him beating Australian drivers, who apprently have mental toughness built in, to do it. And his record against Carlos, in his second season is good. He beat him 8-7 in qualy, 8-7 in races and they had a podium each. So Oscar is not doing in his second season what Lando did in his.

Ah, but you may say that Lando has six seasons behind him. Fair point. But only three of those are in the current regs. Lando has one more season than Oscar driving these cars. Thats not a significant level of experience more. Oscar is two seasons in, the "he's still learning argument" doesn't cut it anymore. It can be argued that if Oscar had been closer to Lando all year McLarens grip on the Constructors would be a lot firmer right now.

Lando gets rattled ?? .. Maybe sometimes. Not holding him back when it comes to beating the mental Australian giant that is apparently Oscar Piastri though. And being the only driver to have a chance of taking the title from Max. And lets not forget that the apparently ice cool Oscar went off from the lead in Hungary under zero pressure and arguably cost himself a win in Spa by overshooting his pitbox on the final pit stop. He then rocked up in Monza and promptly helped LeClerc win the race by putting a good move, and it was a really good opportunistic move, on his team mate that ultimately cost the team. Lando is winning races by twenty seconds plus over everyone. Oscar was let through in Hungary while Lando was faster on older tyres and he barely held on in Baku while having to have Lando help him by holding up Perez, even Oscar admits that. Lando was back in 15th that day only because of a yellow flag.

Lando gets pulled up for losing places at the start. That's a fair point but the starts have got better through the year and there is also the second phase to consider. His reactions are up there with everyone else, it seems to be the second phase that is a problem, and that's car territory. Oscar gets praised fror making positions on Lando, not really difficult that when you are always starting to behind your team mate. This is the first time Lando has had to step up and challenge Max, in a year where no one expected him to, and that's a learning curve. Six months ago he hadn't won a race. Right now its still mathematically possible to win the title. Big leap that. Its funny how some people are keen on making out Oscar is still learning after two years and we should give him time while also giving Lando zero slack for being in his first title fight, apparently he is just "bottling" everything.

Oscar HAS to AT LEAST match Lando next year because the honeymoon is over. Zak Brown did a podcast with High Performance just after Daniel left the team. Zak stated that the next contract would have performance clauses in it, if Oscar isn't at least matching Lando next year then questions may start being asked. Getting Number One status is one thing, keeping it is another. You have to perform.

If Lando has struggled this year it's not really a surprise. You are beating your team mate but your team tells you publicly that you cannot win a Championship without your team mate while berating you on the radio for not wanting to give up a win after they put you in the lead. Refuses to publicly back you for the Drivers Title. Then your team principal says at Monza that the guy your'e beating "is the future" and now, after Brazil,says that actually, the drivers title was never really our focus. All in a team you stuck with because you believed in them, while turning down offers from the team that was winning everything at the time.

Yeah, I'd be doubting myself and my decisions a little bit too.
There are two aspects to driving an F1 car :
A) raw pace, judgement of grip, maximizing performance
B) race intelligence, ability to survive wheel-to-wheel duels, make 'balls-on-the-line' risky overtaking/defending moves, ability to wrestle a non-ideal car and bring it under control in non-ideal conditions

Norris excels in A, has to improve B.
Piastri excels in B, has to improve (a lot) A.
Improving B is less harder to achieve than improving A (talent wall).

To win world championships, both A and B have to be excellent.

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BMMR61
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Waz wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 12:02 pm
You've conflated results with mental toughness or decision making abilities.

It's not the same, and your results on paper lack context anyway.

The comparison between Oscar and Lando's decision making is very clear to see during races.
Summed it up for me.

Short scorecard (forget the points table).
Lando is still the quicker mostly, comes across as the less mature. Should know how to measure his words, not let them flow. Yes, Oscar can seem pretty dry at times but the media will twist your context if you aren't careful with words. As much as we know luck wasn't with McLaren in the Brazil main race, however, never, ever say to the media things like "luck". To be fair what he says isn't always so bad but the negative way he talks is really bad. When you're in your mid twenties it isn't too late to correct stinking thinking and learn the power of positive thinking. Slow to mature is what I would say. Oscar seems to have come already grown up, his mum's chat on Red Flags podcast is revealing.

Watto
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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On raw pace I would have Lando has quicker. But I think if you asked me who would I prefer fighting from the middle of the pack willing to get their elbows out take some risks. and unsettle a few drivers in the process if he had to I would pick Oscar, I think his dive down the inside of Lando when they were both fighting off Max earlier this year is an example of it, don't think Lando saw it coming, not sure he really liked it (fend off Max first then worry about the battle between the two of them Oscas saw the gap and went for it.. I think Lando has improved a little this year n dealing with it but its the one little question mark I would have n him.

Don't think that is a hit on either of them really. I think they have the strongest driver combo on the grid

basti313
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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venkyhere wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 1:41 pm
Norris excels in A, has to improve B.
You are right on Q pace. I disagree strongly on the starts: This is "judgement of grip". In Brazil he got a very good launch, reaction time...everything fine...but then spun his wheels in third gear. Not uncommon for this season, right?
Same when he went off track two times. Oscar for example kept the car on track.
I simply do not see how you can name this "excels". Maybe more dream than real world?
venkyhere wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 1:41 pm
To win world championships, both A and B have to be excellent.
Cmon...Hill, Villeneuve, Rosberg, Button...
No, if they got half the car as now for next season, the next McLaren WDC just needs to be better in Q than his teammate. Everything else comes down to "please do not bottle it again". [-o<
Watto wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 11:28 pm
Don't think that is a hit on either of them really. I think they have the strongest driver combo on the grid
The strongest driver combo in the strongest car would win the WDC (removing all McLaren examples of course).
Just take a look at the stats: WCC excels. WDC lacks. You have it black on white if you adjust the colors on your screen accordingly.

And a bold statement after Brazil in general...I would wait to call them "the best of the best" till the next race at least.
Waz wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2024 12:02 pm
The comparison between Oscar and Lando's decision making is very clear to see during races.
What exactly do you mean with that?
In Brazil it was the driver feedback that was bad, there were no "decisions" made. As for Mercedes the error to pit when the VSC ended was made on the pit wall, but they also had bad feedback.
Don`t russel the hamster!

Waz
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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In Brazil, Lando chose the pit option. There is a very clear difference in communication between Lando, Oscar and the pitwall.

Oscar is very decisive very quickly and communicates it effectively in just 1 or 2 words.

Eg, RE: "Oscar, how do you feel about plan A?"
Oscar : "Ambitious"

End of call.

Or in Silverstone, asking Oscar which tire he prefers at next stop. His answer was immediately Medium.

The same option for Lando was presented as choices between copying Lewis or copying Max. Lando dithered and went for Lewis because he was leading, instead of the blatantly better tire by that time.

Edit to add: the communication in general between Lando and his RE needs improvement. I believe something must have happened behind the scenes last year, as I have noticed the RE almost panders to Lando this year, rather than offering concise information with simple options.

CjC
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Seems Mr Lawson has a lot to say for himself:

‘Play the NZ national anthem when McLaren win’
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/533412 ... -victories

Thoughts?
Just a fan's point of view

Emag
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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CjC wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:13 pm
Seems Mr Lawson has a lot to say for himself:

‘Play the NZ national anthem when McLaren win’
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/533412 ... -victories

Thoughts?
The only affiliation McLaren has with New Zealand is the founder being born there. Bruce himself founded the team in Britain and has raced with a British license from the beginning. It makes no sense to play the New Zealand anthem when the team has little to nothing apart from Bruce's birthplace that can connect it with New Zealand heritage.

The only somewhat comparable situation is RedBull, but it is still not the same as with RedBull Racing, because RBR is a motorsport subsidiary of RedBull (the energy drink), which is an Austrian company.

Either way, I don't personally care what anthem is played for any of the teams. Also, again on a personal level, I would feel no sense of pride whatsoever if my country's national anthem was played for an F1 team which has practically zero connections with my country (not even indirect funding as it happens with RedBull). So I don't know why he would make such a comment (I also don't know the context in which it was made to be fair, it might have been a joke).

If he wants to be a "purist" then pretty much the entire grid is not respecting their "origin" by having factories and key personnel hired from elsewhere.

The only exception is Ferrari, which by all intents and purposes, could be considered 100% Italian.

GhostF1
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Emag wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2024 11:43 pm
CjC wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:13 pm
Seems Mr Lawson has a lot to say for himself:

‘Play the NZ national anthem when McLaren win’
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/533412 ... -victories

Thoughts?
The only affiliation McLaren has with New Zealand is the founder being born there. Bruce himself founded the team in Britain and has raced with a British license from the beginning. It makes no sense to play the New Zealand anthem when the team has little to nothing apart from Bruce's birthplace that can connect it with New Zealand heritage.

The only somewhat comparable situation is RedBull, but it is still not the same as with RedBull Racing, because RBR is a motorsport subsidiary of RedBull (the energy drink), which is an Austrian company.

Either way, I don't personally care what anthem is played for any of the teams. Also, again on a personal level, I would feel no sense of pride whatsoever if my country's national anthem was played for an F1 team which has practically zero connections with my country (not even indirect funding as it happens with RedBull). So I don't know why he would make such a comment (I also don't know the context in which it was made to be fair, it might have been a joke).

If he wants to be a "purist" then pretty much the entire grid is not respecting their "origin" by having factories and key personnel hired from elsewhere.

The only exception is Ferrari, which by all intents and purposes, could be considered 100% Italian.
It has a whiff of "notice us please" about it... There's having national pride, then there's just being a little obtuse about it. The reality is NZ, as beautiful as the country is, has absolutely nothing to do with the company whatsoever now or in the lead up to in any sense. Bruce McLaren's country of birth excluded.

His logic would imply SpaceX or Tesla are South African companies..

Henri
Henri
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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https://x.com/F1BigData/status/1855946787846074658
Lando needs to improve on this if he wants to be considered a top 4 driver..

PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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CjC wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:13 pm
Seems Mr Lawson has a lot to say for himself:

‘Play the NZ national anthem when McLaren win’
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/533412 ... -victories

Thoughts?
If Mr Lawson wants to hear the NZ National Anthem, he should go ahead and get himself into a race winning car and then win some races. Then, assuming that car is a Red Bull, he can hear the Austrian anthem for a team founded in Britain, based in Britain but with an Austrian owner.

Seriously, if McLaren were going to start playing any other anthem it should be the Bahraini one.... So let's leave things as they are lol
If I come across as blunt, I apologise, it's my ASD. Sometimes, like an F1 car aqua-planing, it gets out of my control.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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A lion must kill its prey.