2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
BMMR61
0
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 12:02 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

A few comments based on the discussions currently raging here;

The measured downforce at Woking is real, translating that to lap times is much more a matter of educated guesswork. (-0.4 per lap in qualifying or in the Grand Prix? Plus, it all changes at different circuits.)

Nice what Will Jacob says, probably received a "quieten down" from Stella. Meanwhile Zak is on the foghorn about everything from the car, Stella, the drivers, and Verstappen, really should tone it down a bit, there are journos around looking for sensational snippets.

I remain convinced the new spec gives the front end a noticeable bite, viewed at normal speed. I think LionsHeart was denying this while at the same breath saying the car was getting to the apex just fine. Huh? (sorry if I attributed it to the wrong person)

Because the MCL60(B spec) never ran at Miami (unlike Suzuka) we can't get a meaningful read on the progress of the MCL38, we do know it has made a significant improvement. Beware of journos who only a few weeks ago had us matched with Aston who are now all over McLaren. To avoid false optimism we need to see the progress over several weekends, as someone else noted. FWIW I think Will is likely on the mark with his comment. Miami was one of our very worst tracks. Last year's Austria upgrade result was greeted with "we need to wait until Silverstone" then "Hungary will be a severe test of the slow corner traits of the car". I'd like to think we will mirror that stage of last year's championship. Whatever, Red Bull, more particularly Max, will be hard to put under pressure, let alone knock off.

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
14
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:21 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

BMMR61 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 12:46 pm
A few comments based on the discussions currently raging here;

The measured downforce at Woking is real, translating that to lap times is much more a matter of educated guesswork. (-0.4 per lap in qualifying or in the Grand Prix? Plus, it all changes at different circuits.)

Nice what Will Jacob says, probably received a "quieten down" from Stella. Meanwhile Zak is on the foghorn about everything from the car, Stella, the drivers, and Verstappen, really should tone it down a bit, there are journos around looking for sensational snippets.

I remain convinced the new spec gives the front end a noticeable bite, viewed at normal speed. I think LionsHeart was denying this while at the same breath saying the car was getting to the apex just fine. Huh? (sorry if I attributed it to the wrong person)

Because the MCL60(B spec) never ran at Miami (unlike Suzuka) we can't get a meaningful read on the progress of the MCL38, we do know it has made a significant improvement. Beware of journos who only a few weeks ago had us matched with Aston who are now all over McLaren. To avoid false optimism we need to see the progress over several weekends, as someone else noted. FWIW I think Will is likely on the mark with his comment. Miami was one of our very worst tracks. Last year's Austria upgrade result was greeted with "we need to wait until Silverstone" then "Hungary will be a severe test of the slow corner traits of the car". I'd like to think we will mirror that stage of last year's championship. Whatever, Red Bull, more particularly Max, will be hard to put under pressure, let alone knock off.
I'm not quite sure what context you're singling me out in. I've written a lot in the last week about what I've seen in the changes in chassis behavior.

You have collected everything in a heap, and the words of the team members, and my words, and the words of the other guys who are sitting here. And, also the words of some journalists. I was just making some assumptions about what the real increase would be. I pointed out that one source indicated these same 0.4 seconds. How did they determine this? These are not my words, but they were part of my assumption even before the car left on Friday.

This speculation about winning a lap in seconds can go on forever until someone from the team officially reports it.

What I can see is that compared to the same Miami 2023, when the chassis was without major updates, the overall behavior is very similar. But the chassis stands confidently on the road, you can clearly see that there is more grip on the road, there is no slipping when entering or exiting corners.

I will repeat, I don’t know how many times, there is a big change in the passage of turn 17. The late braking phase and apex entry are radically different and unlike what the McL60B then did. McLaren couldn't do this before, but now he can.

You noted that the Spec B did not perform here in Miami, but this does not matter, because with the updates last year they only added downforce. Behavior, balance and handling remain the same. So I don't agree with you here.

I will add: it is difficult for me to determine this sharpness in the front end. If we compare the current sharpness with what the RB19 had, then the Red Bull chassis of last year is still very far away. It had a sharp front end. The McLaren McL38B now has rather just neutral handling. There is no understeer when entering corners. But there is no sharpness either.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 9:08 pm
BosF1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm
Perhaps this might be a good podcast to listen to. It's the Imola preview, with Will Joseph (Norris' race engineer) among others. He says that the team wasn't expecting the upgrade to work this well in Miami and that the characteristics of the upgrades should suit medium/high speed corners more (e.g. Imola). Sounds like there is a real buzz in the McLaren team anticipating for the Emilia Romagna GP. And if anyone should know...

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zcDBw ... ZJjRxtIimg
Yes that's the one. Thanks for posting. Definitely more substantial than speculation and it is backing up the idea that the Miami gains were more than .3 - .4 seconds, which I think is true and are probably Austria level gains, but not necessarily all down to the upgrade. However, Lando's engineer Will Joseph suggests the upgrade will work better at Imola. Though I suspect we may find that this is offset by a setup for a track with a mixture of corners losing some of the Miami advantage.
You have to keep in mind that Miami was a sprint weekend, so I doubt McLaren have exploited the upgrade to its fullest yet. I think it's too easy to make assumptions about the upgrade and/or get carried away.
In any case, I'm feeling quite positive that the weekend could go well, but nervous of what other teams will bring in terms of upgrades.
Overall McLaren is in a positive development path of progression. I'm guessing that Redbull will probably the team to beat in Imola, Ferrari will likely have a decent upgrade package.

Anyway, it feels like McLaren have finally got it's techinical woes sorted and they can continue making steady progress towards becoming title challengers.

User avatar
mwillems
34
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:11 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

taperoo2k wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 3:39 pm
mwillems wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 9:08 pm
BosF1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 8:55 pm
Perhaps this might be a good podcast to listen to. It's the Imola preview, with Will Joseph (Norris' race engineer) among others. He says that the team wasn't expecting the upgrade to work this well in Miami and that the characteristics of the upgrades should suit medium/high speed corners more (e.g. Imola). Sounds like there is a real buzz in the McLaren team anticipating for the Emilia Romagna GP. And if anyone should know...

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zcDBw ... ZJjRxtIimg
Yes that's the one. Thanks for posting. Definitely more substantial than speculation and it is backing up the idea that the Miami gains were more than .3 - .4 seconds, which I think is true and are probably Austria level gains, but not necessarily all down to the upgrade. However, Lando's engineer Will Joseph suggests the upgrade will work better at Imola. Though I suspect we may find that this is offset by a setup for a track with a mixture of corners losing some of the Miami advantage.
You have to keep in mind that Miami was a sprint weekend, so I doubt McLaren have exploited the upgrade to its fullest yet. I think it's too easy to make assumptions about the upgrade and/or get carried away.
In any case, I'm feeling quite positive that the weekend could go well, but nervous of what other teams will bring in terms of upgrades.
Overall McLaren is in a positive development path of progression. I'm guessing that Redbull will probably the team to beat in Imola, Ferrari will likely have a decent upgrade package.

Anyway, it feels like McLaren have finally got it's techinical woes sorted and they can continue making steady progress towards becoming title challengers.
It's just an opinion based on some data and what the team have said. Don't think there is any getting carried away, I've been clear that I have optimism for the weekend and fears of what others might bring and how the package will perform.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

User avatar
BMMR61
0
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 12:02 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

LionsHeart wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 2:50 pm
BMMR61 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 12:46 pm
A few comments based on the discussions currently raging here;

The measured downforce at Woking is real, translating that to lap times is much more a matter of educated guesswork. (-0.4 per lap in qualifying or in the Grand Prix? Plus, it all changes at different circuits.)

Nice what Will Jacob says, probably received a "quieten down" from Stella. Meanwhile Zak is on the foghorn about everything from the car, Stella, the drivers, and Verstappen, really should tone it down a bit, there are journos around looking for sensational snippets.

I remain convinced the new spec gives the front end a noticeable bite, viewed at normal speed. I think LionsHeart was denying this while at the same breath saying the car was getting to the apex just fine. Huh? (sorry if I attributed it to the wrong person)

Because the MCL60(B spec) never ran at Miami (unlike Suzuka) we can't get a meaningful read on the progress of the MCL38, we do know it has made a significant improvement. Beware of journos who only a few weeks ago had us matched with Aston who are now all over McLaren. To avoid false optimism we need to see the progress over several weekends, as someone else noted. FWIW I think Will is likely on the mark with his comment. Miami was one of our very worst tracks. Last year's Austria upgrade result was greeted with "we need to wait until Silverstone" then "Hungary will be a severe test of the slow corner traits of the car". I'd like to think we will mirror that stage of last year's championship. Whatever, Red Bull, more particularly Max, will be hard to put under pressure, let alone knock off.
I'm not quite sure what context you're singling me out in. I've written a lot in the last week about what I've seen in the changes in chassis behavior.

You have collected everything in a heap, and the words of the team members, and my words, and the words of the other guys who are sitting here. And, also the words of some journalists. I was just making some assumptions about what the real increase would be. I pointed out that one source indicated these same 0.4 seconds. How did they determine this? These are not my words, but they were part of my assumption even before the car left on Friday.

This speculation about winning a lap in seconds can go on forever until someone from the team officially reports it.

What I can see is that compared to the same Miami 2023, when the chassis was without major updates, the overall behavior is very similar. But the chassis stands confidently on the road, you can clearly see that there is more grip on the road, there is no slipping when entering or exiting corners.

I will repeat, I don’t know how many times, there is a big change in the passage of turn 17. The late braking phase and apex entry are radically different and unlike what the McL60B then did. McLaren couldn't do this before, but now he can.

You noted that the Spec B did not perform here in Miami, but this does not matter, because with the updates last year they only added downforce. Behavior, balance and handling remain the same. So I don't agree with you here.

I will add: it is difficult for me to determine this sharpness in the front end. If we compare the current sharpness with what the RB19 had, then the Red Bull chassis of last year is still very far away. It had a sharp front end. The McLaren McL38B now has rather just neutral handling. There is no understeer when entering corners. But there is no sharpness either.
Hey LionsHeart, no need for defensiveness. I agree with most of your comments, in my summation the only part that referenced you was regards understeer. I still feel your original post comment that the balance of the car hadn't fundamentally changed looked to be contradicted by another that Norris was hitting the apexes. My earlier post stated that I COULD see a front end attitude early in the weekend that really made me sit up and take notice, the car appeared to have front end bite and I think this is what could be described as "balance". Do you not agree and if so in what regard? I always find your comments here among the more incisive so I struggle with this apparent contradiction. We know the McLaren has had, particularly in long slow speed corners, this difficulty which also wrecks the front tyres. It looks to me that the new front wing, and probably other components, targeted this characteristic and largely achieved it. Now I know that my comment contradicts in a way what Will Joseph said about the purpose of the upgrades recently but the results, under the microscope, seem to point to it giving great gains in front limits. At a low speed dominant track the upgrade was an unmitigated success, in hot conditions that don't normally favour us.

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
14
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:21 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

BMMR61 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 10:55 pm
LionsHeart wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 2:50 pm
BMMR61 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 12:46 pm
A few comments based on the discussions currently raging here;

The measured downforce at Woking is real, translating that to lap times is much more a matter of educated guesswork. (-0.4 per lap in qualifying or in the Grand Prix? Plus, it all changes at different circuits.)

Nice what Will Jacob says, probably received a "quieten down" from Stella. Meanwhile Zak is on the foghorn about everything from the car, Stella, the drivers, and Verstappen, really should tone it down a bit, there are journos around looking for sensational snippets.

I remain convinced the new spec gives the front end a noticeable bite, viewed at normal speed. I think LionsHeart was denying this while at the same breath saying the car was getting to the apex just fine. Huh? (sorry if I attributed it to the wrong person)

Because the MCL60(B spec) never ran at Miami (unlike Suzuka) we can't get a meaningful read on the progress of the MCL38, we do know it has made a significant improvement. Beware of journos who only a few weeks ago had us matched with Aston who are now all over McLaren. To avoid false optimism we need to see the progress over several weekends, as someone else noted. FWIW I think Will is likely on the mark with his comment. Miami was one of our very worst tracks. Last year's Austria upgrade result was greeted with "we need to wait until Silverstone" then "Hungary will be a severe test of the slow corner traits of the car". I'd like to think we will mirror that stage of last year's championship. Whatever, Red Bull, more particularly Max, will be hard to put under pressure, let alone knock off.
I'm not quite sure what context you're singling me out in. I've written a lot in the last week about what I've seen in the changes in chassis behavior.

You have collected everything in a heap, and the words of the team members, and my words, and the words of the other guys who are sitting here. And, also the words of some journalists. I was just making some assumptions about what the real increase would be. I pointed out that one source indicated these same 0.4 seconds. How did they determine this? These are not my words, but they were part of my assumption even before the car left on Friday.

This speculation about winning a lap in seconds can go on forever until someone from the team officially reports it.

What I can see is that compared to the same Miami 2023, when the chassis was without major updates, the overall behavior is very similar. But the chassis stands confidently on the road, you can clearly see that there is more grip on the road, there is no slipping when entering or exiting corners.

I will repeat, I don’t know how many times, there is a big change in the passage of turn 17. The late braking phase and apex entry are radically different and unlike what the McL60B then did. McLaren couldn't do this before, but now he can.

You noted that the Spec B did not perform here in Miami, but this does not matter, because with the updates last year they only added downforce. Behavior, balance and handling remain the same. So I don't agree with you here.

I will add: it is difficult for me to determine this sharpness in the front end. If we compare the current sharpness with what the RB19 had, then the Red Bull chassis of last year is still very far away. It had a sharp front end. The McLaren McL38B now has rather just neutral handling. There is no understeer when entering corners. But there is no sharpness either.
Hey LionsHeart, no need for defensiveness. I agree with most of your comments, in my summation the only part that referenced you was regards understeer. I still feel your original post comment that the balance of the car hadn't fundamentally changed looked to be contradicted by another that Norris was hitting the apexes. My earlier post stated that I COULD see a front end attitude early in the weekend that really made me sit up and take notice, the car appeared to have front end bite and I think this is what could be described as "balance". Do you not agree and if so in what regard? I always find your comments here among the more incisive so I struggle with this apparent contradiction. We know the McLaren has had, particularly in long slow speed corners, this difficulty which also wrecks the front tyres. It looks to me that the new front wing, and probably other components, targeted this characteristic and largely achieved it. Now I know that my comment contradicts in a way what Will Joseph said about the purpose of the upgrades recently but the results, under the microscope, seem to point to it giving great gains in front limits. At a low speed dominant track the upgrade was an unmitigated success, in hot conditions that don't normally favour us.
Thanks for the detailed comment. Now at least I understand what a bite is.

I will explain why some of my comments may be contradictory. In general, I do not have telemetry, and I do not see the speed at the entrance and exit of turns. This would seriously help to see real progress. The human eye is unable to see a 1 second difference in the pace of a car. 2 seconds from the circle is still possible.

In the first part of the race, comparing two onboards a year apart, it is clear that the balance in slow turns has improved, the understeer has gone away to a greater extent, and there is no slipping of the front end at the entrance to the turn.

In medium-speed and fast corners there is no difference in balance, with the only exception being that the chassis now corners more stable. There is more downforce, air flows do not once again break off the aerodynamic surfaces.

Lando goes through turn 17 completely differently, everything looks the same as what Carlos Sainz did in Australia 2024 at the entrance to turn 11. There, Ferrari had the opportunity to brake much later than the others, get to an early apex, turn the chassis faster and exit the corner optimally, albeit with a loss of time.

In the case of the McL38B, you can see that the braking point does not change at Turn 17, but the late braking phase changes a lot. Lando couldn’t do this last season, now he can start turning without fully releasing the brakes, getting to the apex early, as if cutting off and narrowing the turn. It then actively but smoothly turns the chassis and accelerates very efficiently out of the corner.

In the rest of the slow turns I didn’t see such a difference, with the exception of turn 11. That's why I said the overall balance sheet looks very similar. And I can generally guess why this is so. On the Miami 2023 onboard you can see that in turn 12 Lando has no problems with the front end slipping, but he takes a little less speed into the turn, saving his tires, then he had to drive 52 laps on hard tires.

This moment could also affect the balance and stability, but if you remember all the onboards over the past year, and compare only with Miami 2024, then Lando for the first time drove the car smoothly, calmly, without mistakes, not trying to attack on the edge, but simply drove, being confident in its behavior and in the fact that there is no need to squeeze all 146% out of the car.

Returning to the controversial point: you just need to wait for those tracks where the overall tire wear is higher, then the overall balance of the updated chassis will be clear. Since tire wear is low in Miami, this track is not representative. So I'll just watch it. :)

To simplify, yes, the front end has become stronger, it grips the road better, in slow corners there is generally noticeable progress, but in medium-speed and fast corners the balance is generally the same. Simply higher stability and control.

User avatar
BMMR61
0
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 12:02 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

Yes, the front end looks noticeably stronger in the slow corners, noticeable to the naked eye even, so the team will have seen this in their data. I agree that the surface/tyre issue with Miami - high surface temperatures but low wear - makes it rather an outlier. Too much so for us to be confident that the dominance which Lando had in the race over Max can be expected to carry on to other circuits. The softest tyre group in the Pirelli range which is being used at Imola is not generally the favoured one in past McLaren experience - McLaren generally perform best on the C1 (hard) but as has been seen, the MCL38B may be quite a different beast.

Dafnalina
Dafnalina
0
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:58 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post



I don't know how much of the improvement in the slow corners is just being able to setup the car with higher df without losing top speed instead of a balance change.

Andrea and Lando's engineer said the upgrade doesn't really tackle the slow speed stuff.

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
14
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:21 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

BMMR61 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 1:26 pm
Yes, the front end looks noticeably stronger in the slow corners, noticeable to the naked eye even, so the team will have seen this in their data. I agree that the surface/tyre issue with Miami - high surface temperatures but low wear - makes it rather an outlier. Too much so for us to be confident that the dominance which Lando had in the race over Max can be expected to carry on to other circuits. The softest tyre group in the Pirelli range which is being used at Imola is not generally the favoured one in past McLaren experience - McLaren generally perform best on the C1 (hard) but as has been seen, the MCL38B may be quite a different beast.
Agree. McLaren usually does very well with harder tires. It is all the more interesting to see the competitiveness in Imola.

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
14
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:21 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

Dafnalina wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 4:35 pm


I don't know how much of the improvement in the slow corners is just being able to setup the car with higher df without losing top speed instead of a balance change.

Andrea and Lando's engineer said the upgrade doesn't really tackle the slow speed stuff.
Specifically, low speed does not solve the problem. But the updates are designed to improve all areas of the car. All types of turns and maximum speed, drag. The team saw on Friday that the chassis was too strong on the straights. To stabilize the rear end for Saturday's qualifying and also protect against rear tire wear, the team added downforce at the rear, thereby losing top speed. This is exactly the case when the team has a choice. The chassis now allows this.

Personally, I myself would like to see the specification of the beam wing in combat conditions to see the effectiveness on a straight line. This should make overtaking and defending easier.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
477
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

Regardless of the lap time improvement from the upgrades (which we really don’t know) there will be additional lap time that comes from the “intangibles” of a more balanced or predictable platform… If the upgrades are providing the drivers with a more predictable car, that will increase their confidence and will have a net positive effect in lap time, specially when looking at Race Pace (more so that in Qualifying), beyond what the upgrade itself on paper provides.

If the upgrades have indeed allowed for an improvement in drivability, expect to see more gains in terms of race pace than qualifying pace moving forward

LionsHeart
LionsHeart
14
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:21 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 7:32 pm
Regardless of the lap time improvement from the upgrades (which we really don’t know) there will be additional lap time that comes from the “intangibles” of a more balanced or predictable platform… If the upgrades are providing the drivers with a more predictable car, that will increase their confidence and will have a net positive effect in lap time, specially when looking at Race Pace (more so that in Qualifying), beyond what the upgrade itself on paper provides.

If the upgrades have indeed allowed for an improvement in drivability, expect to see more gains in terms of race pace than qualifying pace moving forward
Right. That's how it works.

User avatar
mwillems
34
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:11 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

Both race and Qualification should have equally important improvements. Pace is one side of the equation if the car is able to look after the tyres better and allow the drivers to push the car to a lower delta in the race. In Qualification the drivers are already pushing to what they think is the limit. The improvement of the car should help the drivers push the car to the limit and not go over the limit and therefore increase the likelihood that we can get the optimum laps in Q3.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

User avatar
mwillems
34
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:11 pm

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

We can dream.

I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
477
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

Post

mwillems wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 9:10 pm
Both race and Qualification should have equally important improvements. Pace is one side of the equation if the car is able to look after the tyres better and allow the drivers to push the car to a lower delta in the race. In Qualification the drivers are already pushing to what they think is the limit. The improvement of the car should help the drivers push the car to the limit and not go over the limit and therefore increase the likelihood that we can get the optimum laps in Q3.
It will be track dependent, but if what has been addressed with the upgrades is platform stability, there will be a larger impact on race pace than qualifying… In qualifying, some of those instabilities are masked by stickier tires and going to the limit… The additional confidence of an stable platform will reduce hesitation from the drivers during turning / throttle application, this adds up throughout a lap, beyond what better tire management (longer stints at high pace) gives you… I expect the improvements to be higher during the race than during qualifying.