## Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

nzjrs wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:56 am
Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:50 am

Thanks for the serious question. Here you have the definition of this Moble Perpetum .. Only you probably need to change a little text about the possible action. Because neither the underwater glider or my aerodynamic ideas have anything to do with "Termo", as he writes there ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

It's good that you start to think for yourself and you will be able to distinguish between what is serious and what is sarcasm .. I help you to recognize this as much as I can ..

Andrew
Are you messing with me? The word "Termo" does not appear in that page. Did you mean the (laws of) thermodynamics?
It appears that he seriously believes that he can make a machine that doesn't obey / or breaks the laws of physics, with particular reference to the laws of thermodynamics.

It's the engineering equivalent of a flat earther or an anti-vaxxer.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tim.Wright
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

+1 that the sea glider is transferring energy between 2 sources of potential energy. Gravitational to buoyancy on the way down and bouyance to gravitational on the way up. There is no energy being created out of nothing here.

The energy you're missing here Felix is the energy used to move the ballast mass in and out of the glider. If you bothered to calculate the energy contributing to that mass transfer, you will likely find that it is equal to the potential energy expended during the dive and return
Not the engineer at Force India

Feliks
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Location: Krakow,Poland

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Tommy Cookers wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:36 am
Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:18 am
Tommy Cookers wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:46 am

afaik ....
ultimately to rise again the underwater glider must increase its buoyancy ....
by displacing some of the water .....
this is work done by the glider that increases the potential energy of the ocean

... you understand little .. "this is work done by the glider that increases the potential energy of the ocean" Ha, Ha, Ha, And what is the potential energy of the ocean ??? . I am the first one to hear about such ...
And how then it reduces buoyancy, it reduces these energies? and it goes to zero .. Ha, Ha. Somehow you didn't notice that then I do shrink .. .. Ha, Ha, Ha ..
Andrew
the potential energy of the ocean is due to the gravitational attraction ie it depends on the height of the ocean

eg a glider-submarine's displacement is increased by 1 cubic metre to make it rise due to the 1 ton buoyancy created
... this makes the entire ocean above the submarine rise (by maybe 0.000000000000001 m)
the mechanical work to increase the displacement has added potential energy to the 'above' portion of the ocean

as the sub glides quickly forward and slowly upward the 'above' ocean is slowly lowered
ie some of that ocean potential energy is transferred by the rising foil action into driving the sub
when eventually the sub surfaces the ocean has returned to its original level

It's a pity you missed one thing in your line of thought .. But you won't become Archimedes. Namely neglecting the contradiction such that the energy depends on the path that the glider carries, already after its installation .. There is a colossal difference in the amount of energy received depending on whether the glider will sink 10 meters or 1000 meters .. This difference is 100 times that you missed in your reasoning .. And the amount of water displaced is the same all the time ..
Maybe this explanation will help you understand the difference between Archimedes and Felix ...

Andrew

Rodak
Rodak
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

I think this whole topic is ridiculous, but still
....as the sub glides quickly forward and slowly upward the 'above' ocean is slowly lowered
ie some of that ocean potential energy is transferred by the rising foil action into driving the sub
when eventually the sub surfaces the ocean has returned to its original level
This statement is not true. A submarine vessel on the surface displaces a volume of water equal in weight to its weight, that's why it floats. To submerge the sub must make its weight equal to or greater than the weight of water displaced by its submerged volume; it does this by flooding ballast tanks with water until its air filled volume displacement is less than its weight and it sinks. It surfaces by displacing water in its ballast tanks with compressed air.
Last edited by Rodak on Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PhillipM
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:17 pm
between Archimedes and Felix ...
...archimedes could actually do math and physics?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Rodak wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:47 pm
I think this whole topic is ridiculous, but still
....as the sub glides quickly forward and slowly upward the 'above' ocean is slowly lowered
ie some of that ocean potential energy is transferred by the rising foil action into driving the sub
when eventually the sub surfaces the ocean has returned to its original level
This statement is not true. ....
we are talking about an actual submarine glider that cycles between 2 different depths of immersion ...
and where the energy comes from to propel it

PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

The energy comes from expelling the ballast again the water pressure. Which is quite a lot at depth...

Feliks
6
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Krakow,Poland

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

PhillipM wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:35 pm
The energy comes from expelling the ballast again the water pressure. Which is quite a lot at depth...
Instead of issuing unconfirmed opinions, it is better to read it in Wikipedia, it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_engine

Even here there are modern methods to achieve this ..
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 309X443007

Of course, anyway, little energy is needed, and I will provide my propeller on the nose of the vehicle .. Certainly now such a vehicle will be able to explore the oceans for years without the need for maintenance .. No matter what you call it ..

one more https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/541643/
Andrew

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:10 pm
PhillipM wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:35 pm
The energy comes from expelling the ballast again the water pressure. Which is quite a lot at depth...
Instead of issuing unconfirmed opinions, it is better to read it in Wikipedia, it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_engine

Even here there are modern methods to achieve this ..
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 309X443007

Of course, anyway, little energy is needed, and I will provide my propeller on the nose of the vehicle .. Certainly now such a vehicle will be able to explore the oceans for years without the need for maintenance .. No matter what you call it ..

one more https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/541643/
Andrew
And it still won't be perpetual motion because there is an input of energy.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Feliks
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Krakow,Poland

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Just_a_fan wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:50 pm
Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:10 pm
PhillipM wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:35 pm
The energy comes from expelling the ballast again the water pressure. Which is quite a lot at depth...
Instead of issuing unconfirmed opinions, it is better to read it in Wikipedia, it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_engine

Even here there are modern methods to achieve this ..
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 309X443007

Of course, anyway, little energy is needed, and I will provide my propeller on the nose of the vehicle .. Certainly now such a vehicle will be able to explore the oceans for years without the need for maintenance .. No matter what you call it ..

one more https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/541643/
Andrew
And it still won't be perpetual motion because there is an input of energy.
I know, you know better. Enough energy is flowing in from your brain there....

PhillipM
PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:10 pm
PhillipM wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:35 pm
The energy comes from expelling the ballast again the water pressure. Which is quite a lot at depth...
Instead of issuing unconfirmed opinions, it is better to read it in Wikipedia, it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_engine
Which, as usual for you, completely avoids the issue at hand. Which is that you still need energy.
I'm still looking forward, even after this many years, to you actually, once, just once, building one of your 'machines' instead of the little diagrams that completely ignore half a dozen factors - and then realising none of them work practically at all.

Feliks
6
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Krakow,Poland

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

PhillipM wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:22 am
Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:10 pm
PhillipM wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:35 pm
The energy comes from expelling the ballast again the water pressure. Which is quite a lot at depth...
Instead of issuing unconfirmed opinions, it is better to read it in Wikipedia, it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_engine
Which, as usual for you, completely avoids the issue at hand. Which is that you still need energy.
I'm still looking forward, even after this many years, to you actually, once, just once, building one of your 'machines' instead of the little diagrams that completely ignore half a dozen factors - and then realising none of them work practically at all.
I can see that you still want to humiliate me and you say silly that I have never built anything .. Well, by the way, I will remind you of my two machines that I built and they work great .. as they were designed, and one even 2.5 times better than I designed it. But something like Lord Kelvin seems to be blind and they do not want to watch, because that's how they can handle it .. And I would not even entrust you with taking pictures .. let alone such machines and for my private money .. pinned you .. because you still have outstanding ..But you probably can't afford to pay for my work normally ..

And despite my age and illness, I have a few things in my head, but I don't publish it, and I just watch how they treat me ...
Andrew

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
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### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Feliks wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 am
Just_a_fan wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:50 pm
Feliks wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:10 pm

Instead of issuing unconfirmed opinions, it is better to read it in Wikipedia, it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_engine

Even here there are modern methods to achieve this ..
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 309X443007

Of course, anyway, little energy is needed, and I will provide my propeller on the nose of the vehicle .. Certainly now such a vehicle will be able to explore the oceans for years without the need for maintenance .. No matter what you call it ..

one more https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/541643/
Andrew
And it still won't be perpetual motion because there is an input of energy.
I know, you know better. Enough energy is flowing in from your brain there....
Have you calculated how much energy your little propeller will be able to provide the buoyancy glider? It travels at around 0.5knots - that's 0.257m/s. In the world where we poor fools live, that velocity isn't going to turn a propeller very quickly. Perhaps in your world where different physical laws exist, it will whizz around and make all the energy one needs. Perhaps you could let us know how much energy you think it will provide. And how much energy is required to make the buoyancy glider work - adjusting the buoyancy, steering the device, doing useful things whilst it's trundling around in the water. In our "poor fools" world, it'll be making maybe 1 W, just for reference.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Feliks
6
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Krakow,Poland

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Just_a_fan wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:02 am
Feliks wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 am
Just_a_fan wrote: β
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:50 pm

And it still won't be perpetual motion because there is an input of energy.
I know, you know better. Enough energy is flowing in from your brain there....
Have you calculated how much energy your little propeller will be able to provide the buoyancy glider? It travels at around 0.5knots - that's 0.257m/s. In the world where we poor fools live, that velocity isn't going to turn a propeller very quickly. Perhaps in your world where different physical laws exist, it will whizz around and make all the energy one needs. Perhaps you could let us know how much energy you think it will provide. And how much energy is required to make the buoyancy glider work - adjusting the buoyancy, steering the device, doing useful things whilst it's trundling around in the water. In our "poor fools" world, it'll be making maybe 1 W, just for reference.
Well, however, this world, despite the data taken from the moon that to become wise again, is filled with fools. In a moment I will calculate it on the basis of the data provided by the "wise" ...
My vehicle sinks 1000 m, that is, along a 45-degree glide slope, it will be a road of 1414 meters. your given speed of 0.257 meters per second tells us the vehicle will be a ton 1414 / 0.257 = 5501 seconds to make it. According to the "wise" data, it gives only 1 watt of power, which in 5501 will give us 5501 watt seconds, that is 550 watts (0.5 KW) for 10 seconds would be the possible energy to change the volume. I think that such a 0.5 KW motor running for 10 seconds can change the floatability of the glider so much that it will start to emerge .. This is a very specific amount of energy .. I think that you will still remain a "poor fool", as long as you will not pull up math,

Of course, you must have given these data for a propeller with a diameter of 2 meters.

Andrew

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
534
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

### Re: Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

Feliks wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:51 am
Just_a_fan wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:02 am
Feliks wrote: β
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 am

I know, you know better. Enough energy is flowing in from your brain there....
Have you calculated how much energy your little propeller will be able to provide the buoyancy glider? It travels at around 0.5knots - that's 0.257m/s. In the world where we poor fools live, that velocity isn't going to turn a propeller very quickly. Perhaps in your world where different physical laws exist, it will whizz around and make all the energy one needs. Perhaps you could let us know how much energy you think it will provide. And how much energy is required to make the buoyancy glider work - adjusting the buoyancy, steering the device, doing useful things whilst it's trundling around in the water. In our "poor fools" world, it'll be making maybe 1 W, just for reference.
Well, however, this world, despite the data taken from the moon that to become wise again, is filled with fools. In a moment I will calculate it on the basis of the data provided by the "wise" ...
My vehicle sinks 1000 m, that is, along a 45-degree glide slope, it will be a road of 1414 meters. your given speed of 0.257 meters per second tells us the vehicle will be a ton 1414 / 0.257 = 5501 seconds to make it. According to the "wise" data, it gives only 1 watt of power, which in 5501 will give us 5501 watt seconds, that is 550 watts (0.5 KW) for 10 seconds would be the possible energy to change the volume. I think that such a 0.5 KW motor running for 10 seconds can change the floatability of the glider so much that it will start to emerge .. This is a very specific amount of energy .. I think that you will still remain a "poor fool", as long as you will not pull up math,

Of course, you must have given these data for a propeller with a diameter of 2 meters.

Andrew
The depth your device descends to gives you the gravitational potential energy available (which can't all be used by the device because of inefficiency losses). The power available from the propeller is determined by its swept area, the velocity of the flow and the density of the flow (and the efficiency of the design which is gives you some percentage of the maximum theoretical energy that can be extracted from the flow (much less than 100%)). Using a propeller of similar diameter to the sea-explorer glider gives a swept area of c.0.2m^2. 997kg/m^3 for water density, velocity is 0.257m/s. Power is A * rho * v^3 * efficiency factor. That gives you less than 1W. It's worth remembering that the drag of a device increases with the square of the velocity so you can't just add on speed and hope to improve because you're losing even more of your potential energy to losses. It's also worth remembering that the speed of the device is without the drag of the propeller. Add that in, and you'd need to drop through the water column faster in order to maintain the same horizontal speed i.e. you need to convert your gravitational potential energy faster in order to overcome the drag (and power the propeller too).

But whatever the outcome, it's still not perpetual motion because it uses an external energy source.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"