F1technical.net

As so much of the suspension travel is provided by the tyres could this legally be used in F1 tyres to provide suspension. Sorry if this has been rasied before.

Small extract

"The above experiments demonstrate that we have been able to prepare an electro-responsive elastomeric material which undergoes a substantial change of its viscoelasticity upon application of an electric field, we believe not previously known. If the material is embodied as general industrial parts and automotive parts for energy absorption and vibration damping purposes, for example, dampers, shock absorbers and engine mounts, then the properties of these parts can be directly controlled by electrical means, with the additional benefit of a simplified part structure."

The link

http://gauss.ffii.org/PatentView/EP540315

Welcome to the Forum meves.
I don't think it could be used in F1 as it would probably be considered an active suspension; which the rules forbid but it's a brilliant technology that is extremely ingenious. One of the great things about F1Technical is that so many members think outside that proverbial 'box' and the Forum gives us a place to introduce new tech and invites speculation; looking forward to your future posts.

Thanks Carlos, the reason I was wondering is as you said active suspension has been banned for years now but the regulations state the following which is all surrounding sprung suspension or altering the suspension geometry which I guess this won't.

Also with Bridgestone possible supplying more than 2 tyre compunds per race I wondered if this was a potential idea.

10.1 Sprung suspension:

10.1.1 Cars must be fitted with sprung suspension.
10.1.2 The suspension system must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the wheels.

10.2 Suspension geometry:

10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the suspension system is forbidden.
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.

Cool reading! Thanks meves!

I think that with actual rules these would not be possible.

Maybe one team could do it and not be discovered for a while (with the risks that it has), but.... intelectual property belongs to Bridgestone, wich is the same manufacturer of F1 tyres, so... I´m afraid it is not possible.

Welcome meves,

Is your proposal running somewhere along the lines of the magnetorheological fluid for automotive/motorsport suspensions?

Dont let the use of the phrase "Semi-Active Suspension" in the road-car articles scare you off, since it is called "Semi-Active" due to the multiple suspension settings each car may offer; such as comfort or sport. So I would assume that "Semi-Active" wouldn't apply to racing suspensions, especially in F1 where any type of active suspension is not allowed.

Most noticeably its latest application has been on the Corvette ZO6, 599 GTB, and now the Audi R8.

Other Sources:
Delphi MagneRide™

Liquids Research Limited

If you fitted an ordinary F1 tire and an F1 tire of identical construction except the second tire was electro responsive elastometric/magnetorheologic, attached sensors to various suspension points and tested the tires back to back on a race circuit the telemetry readings would certainly be different which means the geometry of the suspension travel would differ, accordingly it would be against the regulations. What intrigues me is the idea of a car with just wishbones, uprights, no shocks or coilsprings, and EREM tires with the tires acting solely as the suspension - now that might just be legal complying with the rules, interesting.

EDIT - That would still be an active suspension and against the rules
It's still interesting

Thanks, meves, and welcome to this forum. Interesing link. Now, can I complain?

Magneto-rheological materials are used in F1. I post and post and post and nobody reads... Is this a clue? I know, I know, Carlos, you do.

Good, as I can use all the old posts and save some time (or waste some of yours... )

This is the Sachs magneto-rheological damp adsorber used by Ferrari since 2003:

Sachs explanation about MR dampers


Abstract by FIAT scientists

They work in a different manner of the ones I know. This is how they look on the inside (this drawing is sort of a joke, pleeeze).



A rotational damper works by turning the vanes to push the fluid through a set of valves, as "clearly" shown in the right part of the picture. Of course, the resistance you get when you turn the vanes inside the tube depicted depends on how viscous is (how sticky) the fluid inside.

There are several fluids that have diferent "rheological properties" (viscosity) when the conditions change. The first that comes to my mind is ketchup: if you slowly apply forces to ketchup, it has high viscosity; on the other hand, if you apply the force quickly, its viscosity lessens (that's why you hit the bottom of the bottle to "release" it)

If you put magnets inside the damper, you can alter the "stickiness" of a magnetic fluid. This is called "magnetorheology" (viscosity altered by magnetism). The best I could quickly find is this linear mono-chamber damper (the fourth option I gave in the old post mentioned).

The light blue squares are the magnets and the lines on top of them are the "magnetic restricted zone", where the fluid becomes sticky: PDF



Finally, I found here that the damping variation caused by permanent magnets is not too far from the one you get with active, electromagnetic ones: http://web.me.unr.edu/ciml/11.pdf.

You can see that the force with "magnets-only" (gray lower line), even if lower than when electrically excited (pink upper line) it is still sizeable, which means the thingies work without clasifying as active suspension:



BTW, the invention is old: 1940, by Jacob Rainbow, an american.

I wonder if these devices, together with what we've wrote about a new theory of tyres (I've posted about it a hundred times, search the forum for "Bo Persson"), that explains the many different damping modes you get from rubber and finally (the theory hadn't changed since the 18th century) give a rational explanation to friction, are behind Ferrari's dominance.

Thanks very much Ciro for that explaination, I'll be sticking to my day job!!

I don't think it could be considered active if it repeatedly gave the same response/behaviour and was not adjustable inside the cabin, otherwise you could argue that tyres are already active because the behaviour of the gas or rubber itself changes due to heat - heat dictated by the behaviour of the car.

meves wrote:Thanks very much Ciro for that explaination, I'll be sticking to my day job!!

We all stick to them. I am not "complaining", I'm just joking, of course. I wanted to make clear that the idea is good and it's already used in dampers, but not in tyres. As Carlos points out, this new idea could change suspensions.

Your post explained to us that this kind of variable suspension response could include the tyres: that's completely new information and a great read. Thanks again for your post and keep them coming, please. Pretty please?

That's cool Ciro, I'll try and come up with more crazy ideas and thanks again for your information!

Ciro,

Don't get discouraged! And thank you for the links on this MR damper, I especially enjoyed the ZF Sachs article for the F-2003GA.

In regard to the MR fluid to be used in F1, I do not undertand how it would be applied to the "tyres", as meves has proposed. In the most obvious and current application, it is used in the suspension areas. Maybe meves is willing to clear up what he meant in the opening post.

Since MR fluid is used in the suspension, and that has an affect on how the tyres perform, is that how it relates to the tyres according to meves? Don't get me wrong, I understand MR fluids and how they work with the suspension, but what has me wondering is meves original post, is there something that I'm not grasping?

Regardless of the members debating its "illegality", it is used, and therefore legal in the current Formula1 setting. Hence Ferrari using it since the '03 season.

And I would believe that this is a development that is shared with road-cars, whether it originated in road-cars or in F1. Which is an issue being pursued IIRC.
Keep up the good work guys, maybe we can return this forum back to a technical one in the near future.

mx_tifosi - It would be similar to the electric charge changing the viscosity of fluid in a shock... a charge would change the stiffness of the tire rubber; sidewalls of the material controlled by sensors would allow a lot of deformation and 'travel'...maybe not even need air or ss_collins secret atmosphere

meve's; thanks for an interesting idea...very enjoyable to share the sandbox with everyone

Yes, yes , an exciting end of the season, the drivers were great but the politics... so dismal. The technology keeps me coming back to follow a thread. Most of the interesting bits and pieces; well, we know they can't be used, all outside the rules. But to find a flirtatious bit of new gear... and imagine the possiblities; maybe F1 will catch up with us one day.

And the last thing we could tolerate; grudgingly share existence with... would be Ciro...in a pensive or discouraged revelry; leave us a few pleasant illusions. A little good cheer

EDIT - I just found this interesting engineering forum this evening. Hope you find something to enjoy. About the post above...is it necessary to say... written in lyric humour? Very enjoyable visiting with everyone.
http://www.eng-tips.com/index.cfm
http://www.eng-tips.com/threadarea.cfm

I have done an amazing amount of research on MR fluids (500+ hours), and I think that I have come up with a way to actually pump it under pressure by using harmonic feedback as the powersource.

Of course, no one believes me, and wont put any money into building a prototype...

You would think that the huge push away from fossil-fuels that more people would at least listen to my concept before dismissing it as rediculous.

Now I understand how Ron Paul feels trying to be a Constitutional Republican in todays Neo Party.

Someday tho, someone will listen, or I will generate enough capital to do it myself... I can deal with never needing to buy gasoline again in my family vehicles...