Active suspension closeup pics

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EAKMotorsports
EAKMotorsports
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Re: Active suspension closeup pics

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amazing pics.
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¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` * EAK

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Re: Active suspension closeup pics

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Those pictures makes me sad actually. For two reasons, first when thinking about what F1 was all about OUAT, secondly when considering where that innovative and engineerish team is at today.
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Andi76
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:51 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:21 am
vorticism wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:34 pm
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 7-31-5.jpg

If the continuous front arm is acting as a transverse leaf spring then it would allow them to make the pullrods slightly thinner.
Rory Byrne was the first to use s monolithic wishbone. I was told by s Ferrari engineer that indeed acted like a spring. So i think that continous front arm acting like you said is reasonable.
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:36 pm
Why did the 93 Williams have a button to "pop up" the diffuser on the straights?
If memory serves, the FW15 had a button to lower the rear of the car to reduce the AoA of the rearwing for less drag and higher Topspeed, not a "Pop-Up" Button.
Their was a replay that I watched years ago that the commentary clearly stated that Hill had a button to raise the rear ride-height and break the diffusor effect to drop drag on the straight. I'll see if I can find it again...

https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-cove ... F1-winner/

"During the race the driver could also access a ‘Push to Pass’ system which caused the rear suspension to raise the rear of the car, reducing drag from the diffuser and simultaneously loosening the rev limiter to provide an extra 300rpm."


So, the real question should be:

Did RBR find a way to keep the 2021 rear-squat-at-speed mechanic with the new rules, and is now running it in reverse by raising-at-speed to drop diffuser drag? It would answer lots of q's if true. Specifically, why they don't porpoise at high speed, and have less drag down the straights.
There was a "push-to-pass" button, but who it is described here makes no sense to me. It would stall the diffuser because the AoA gets to high, but at the same time the AoA of the rear wing increases. And the rear wing produces much more drag. So the effect would be more drag. not less. So i think thats wrong.

I did some research and found an article from more reliable sources - Piola, Marc Hughes and formula1.com:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.formul ... S4AgS.html

Here it is clearly said :"Another feature was a button THAT LOWERED THE REAR OF THE CAR AND THEREBY STALL THE DIFFUSER, which reduced drag of the car considerably....." and "...it was effectively a push to pass button." This makes much more sense as diffuser drag and rearwing drag(by reducing AoA) is lower.

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Big Tea
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:51 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:21 am
Their was a replay that I watched years ago that the commentary clearly stated that Hill had a button to raise the rear ride-height and break the diffusor effect to drop drag on the straight. I'll see if I can find it again...

https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-cove ... F1-winner/
There was a "push-to-pass" button, but who it is described here makes no sense to me. It would stall the diffuser because the AoA gets to high, but at the same time the AoA of the rear wing increases. And the rear wing produces much more drag. So the effect would be more drag. not less. So i think thats wrong.

I did some research and found an article from more reliable sources - Piola, Marc Hughes and formula1.com:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.formul ... S4AgS.html

Here it is clearly said :"Another feature was a button THAT LOWERED THE REAR OF THE CAR AND THEREBY STALL THE DIFFUSER, which reduced drag of the car considerably....." and "...it was effectively a push to pass button." This makes much more sense as diffuser drag and rearwing drag(by reducing AoA) is lower.
Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Zynerji
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:51 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:21 am


Rory Byrne was the first to use s monolithic wishbone. I was told by s Ferrari engineer that indeed acted like a spring. So i think that continous front arm acting like you said is reasonable.



If memory serves, the FW15 had a button to lower the rear of the car to reduce the AoA of the rearwing for less drag and higher Topspeed, not a "Pop-Up" Button.
Their was a replay that I watched years ago that the commentary clearly stated that Hill had a button to raise the rear ride-height and break the diffusor effect to drop drag on the straight. I'll see if I can find it again...

https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-cove ... F1-winner/

"During the race the driver could also access a ‘Push to Pass’ system which caused the rear suspension to raise the rear of the car, reducing drag from the diffuser and simultaneously loosening the rev limiter to provide an extra 300rpm."


So, the real question should be:

Did RBR find a way to keep the 2021 rear-squat-at-speed mechanic with the new rules, and is now running it in reverse by raising-at-speed to drop diffuser drag? It would answer lots of q's if true. Specifically, why they don't porpoise at high speed, and have less drag down the straights.
There was a "push-to-pass" button, but who it is described here makes no sense to me. It would stall the diffuser because the AoA gets to high, but at the same time the AoA of the rear wing increases. And the rear wing produces much more drag. So the effect would be more drag. not less. So i think thats wrong.

I did some research and found an article from more reliable sources - Piola, Marc Hughes and formula1.com:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.formul ... S4AgS.html

Here it is clearly said :"Another feature was a button THAT LOWERED THE REAR OF THE CAR AND THEREBY STALL THE DIFFUSER, which reduced drag of the car considerably....." and "...it was effectively a push to pass button." This makes much more sense as diffuser drag and rearwing drag(by reducing AoA) is lower.
Just watch a replay from the 93 Silverstone race. I believe it is Hunt that describes the lifting motion (calls it "popping the diffusor"), and you can see it clearly during the race. It raises the rear. It does not lower it!

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:48 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:51 pm


Their was a replay that I watched years ago that the commentary clearly stated that Hill had a button to raise the rear ride-height and break the diffusor effect to drop drag on the straight. I'll see if I can find it again...

https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-cove ... F1-winner/

"During the race the driver could also access a ‘Push to Pass’ system which caused the rear suspension to raise the rear of the car, reducing drag from the diffuser and simultaneously loosening the rev limiter to provide an extra 300rpm."


So, the real question should be:

Did RBR find a way to keep the 2021 rear-squat-at-speed mechanic with the new rules, and is now running it in reverse by raising-at-speed to drop diffuser drag? It would answer lots of q's if true. Specifically, why they don't porpoise at high speed, and have less drag down the straights.
There was a "push-to-pass" button, but who it is described here makes no sense to me. It would stall the diffuser because the AoA gets to high, but at the same time the AoA of the rear wing increases. And the rear wing produces much more drag. So the effect would be more drag. not less. So i think thats wrong.

I did some research and found an article from more reliable sources - Piola, Marc Hughes and formula1.com:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.formul ... S4AgS.html

Here it is clearly said :"Another feature was a button THAT LOWERED THE REAR OF THE CAR AND THEREBY STALL THE DIFFUSER, which reduced drag of the car considerably....." and "...it was effectively a push to pass button." This makes much more sense as diffuser drag and rearwing drag(by reducing AoA) is lower.
Just watch a replay from the 93 Silverstone race. I believe it is Hunt that describes the lifting motion (calls it "popping the diffusor"), and you can see it clearly during the race. It raises the rear. It does not lower it!
The FW15 constantly changed its set-up and also its rake angle. So it also was probably that feature for more rake or for a higher AoA of the rearwing. But the lifting motion to be the push-to-pass button just makes no sense. Underfloor and diffuser have much less drag than a rearwing. But by lifting the rear you would get a lot more rearwing-drag because of a higher AoA and only a small reduction of drag by the stalled diffuser. So you would have more drag. Not less. So sorry, but this does not make any sense in my opinion. And i also do not think Formula1 itself and experts like Piola and Hughes(who already were experts in that era and both probably know this car better than any other expert)would be wrong about such an essential feature of this famous car.
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:51 pm
Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
I do not remember such a wing in the 90's. In 2010 there were rearwings the driver was able to stall. This was called F-Duct. This was a complex system of channels to reduce drag. The driver was controled it by a hole in the cockpit. When he left it open, the inlet sucked air into the cockpit, while the air that entered through the airbox flew through an interconnection and out of the lower end of the engine cover. When the driver closed the hole with his leg(later ellbow) the air that was sucked in flew through another channel and mixed itself with the air coming from the airbox and was led to the rearwing instead. This flow disrupted the flow over the rear flapand induced a stall(trailing edge flow)and thereby reducing drag. There even were different versions of the F-Duct for different circuits. Here is an article about it :

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tec ... echnology/

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm

Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
Front wing was driver selectable in 2009. The driver could increase the front wing angle to reduce understeer when following another car. Didn't last long, IIRC, as it wasn't that good.
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Big Tea
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Andi76 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:14 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:48 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm


There was a "push-to-pass" button, but who it is described here makes no sense to me. It would stall the diffuser because the AoA gets to high, but at the same time the AoA of the rear wing increases. And the rear wing produces much more drag. So the effect would be more drag. not less. So i think thats wrong.

I did some research and found an article from more reliable sources - Piola, Marc Hughes and formula1.com:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.formul ... S4AgS.html

Here it is clearly said :"Another feature was a button THAT LOWERED THE REAR OF THE CAR AND THEREBY STALL THE DIFFUSER, which reduced drag of the car considerably....." and "...it was effectively a push to pass button." This makes much more sense as diffuser drag and rearwing drag(by reducing AoA) is lower.
Just watch a replay from the 93 Silverstone race. I believe it is Hunt that describes the lifting motion (calls it "popping the diffusor"), and you can see it clearly during the race. It raises the rear. It does not lower it!
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm


Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
I do not remember such a wing in the 90's. In 2010 there were rearwings the driver was able to stall. This was called F-Duct. This was a complex system of channels to reduce drag. The driver was controled it by a hole in the cockpit. When he left it open, the inlet sucked air into the cockpit, while the air that entered through the airbox flew through an interconnection and out of the lower end of the engine cover. When the driver closed the hole with his leg(later ellbow) the air that was sucked in flew through another channel and mixed itself with the air coming from the airbox and was led to the rearwing instead. This flow disrupted the flow over the rear flapand induced a stall(trailing edge flow)and thereby reducing drag. There even were different versions of the F-Duct for different circuits. Here is an article about it :

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tec ... echnology/
I am fairly sure I remember a 'T handle' in the cockpit that trimmed the front wing, but after googling I have to admit I can not find it. Maybe it was in a parallel universe where I was champ :mrgreen:

It was probably a decade before the F duct I was thinking of.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Big Tea
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:04 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm

Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
Front wing was driver selectable in 2009. The driver could increase the front wing angle to reduce understeer when following another car. Didn't last long, IIRC, as it wasn't that good.
Ah, thank you. I could not find anything on it and was beginning to think I had 'Invented it'.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Zynerji
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Andi76 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:14 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:48 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm


There was a "push-to-pass" button, but who it is described here makes no sense to me. It would stall the diffuser because the AoA gets to high, but at the same time the AoA of the rear wing increases. And the rear wing produces much more drag. So the effect would be more drag. not less. So i think thats wrong.

I did some research and found an article from more reliable sources - Piola, Marc Hughes and formula1.com:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.formul ... S4AgS.html

Here it is clearly said :"Another feature was a button THAT LOWERED THE REAR OF THE CAR AND THEREBY STALL THE DIFFUSER, which reduced drag of the car considerably....." and "...it was effectively a push to pass button." This makes much more sense as diffuser drag and rearwing drag(by reducing AoA) is lower.
Just watch a replay from the 93 Silverstone race. I believe it is Hunt that describes the lifting motion (calls it "popping the diffusor"), and you can see it clearly during the race. It raises the rear. It does not lower it!
The FW15 constantly changed its set-up and also its rake angle. So it also was probably that feature for more rake or for a higher AoA of the rearwing. But the lifting motion to be the push-to-pass button just makes no sense. Underfloor and diffuser have much less drag than a rearwing. But by lifting the rear you would get a lot more rearwing-drag because of a higher AoA and only a small reduction of drag by the stalled diffuser. So you would have more drag. Not less. So sorry, but this does not make any sense in my opinion. And i also do not think Formula1 itself and experts like Piola and Hughes(who already were experts in that era and both probably know this car better than any other expert)would be wrong about such an essential feature of this famous car.
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:25 pm


Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
I do not remember such a wing in the 90's. In 2010 there were rearwings the driver was able to stall. This was called F-Duct. This was a complex system of channels to reduce drag. The driver was controled it by a hole in the cockpit. When he left it open, the inlet sucked air into the cockpit, while the air that entered through the airbox flew through an interconnection and out of the lower end of the engine cover. When the driver closed the hole with his leg(later ellbow) the air that was sucked in flew through another channel and mixed itself with the air coming from the airbox and was led to the rearwing instead. This flow disrupted the flow over the rear flapand induced a stall(trailing edge flow)and thereby reducing drag. There even were different versions of the F-Duct for different circuits. Here is an article about it :

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tec ... echnology/
I suggest you watch it yourself. You say your source is more trustable than the video evidence. I don't know how to help you after that.😬

Ugh... These downvote buttons🙄
Last edited by Zynerji on Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Edax
Edax
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:04 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm

Was there not at one time a driver operated wing angle, sort of DRS? Could it be this? not sure when it was in use and thought it was front wing that 'moved'
Front wing was driver selectable in 2009. The driver could increase the front wing angle to reduce understeer when following another car. Didn't last long, IIRC, as it wasn't that good.
I might be wrong but I recollect that was introduced together with the mandatory slick tire compound change during the race to help the drivers cope with tyre variation.

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:09 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:14 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:48 pm


Just watch a replay from the 93 Silverstone race. I believe it is Hunt that describes the lifting motion (calls it "popping the diffusor"), and you can see it clearly during the race. It raises the rear. It does not lower it!
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm


I do not remember such a wing in the 90's. In 2010 there were rearwings the driver was able to stall. This was called F-Duct. This was a complex system of channels to reduce drag. The driver was controled it by a hole in the cockpit. When he left it open, the inlet sucked air into the cockpit, while the air that entered through the airbox flew through an interconnection and out of the lower end of the engine cover. When the driver closed the hole with his leg(later ellbow) the air that was sucked in flew through another channel and mixed itself with the air coming from the airbox and was led to the rearwing instead. This flow disrupted the flow over the rear flapand induced a stall(trailing edge flow)and thereby reducing drag. There even were different versions of the F-Duct for different circuits. Here is an article about it :

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tec ... echnology/
I am fairly sure I remember a 'T handle' in the cockpit that trimmed the front wing, but after googling I have to admit I can not find it. Maybe it was in a parallel universe where I was champ :mrgreen:

It was probably a decade before the F duct I was thinking of.
For sure a parallel unoverse :D i think i do not lie if i say i know every single front wing from the era of 1991-2006 and there was definetely nothing like that.

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:25 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:14 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:48 pm


Just watch a replay from the 93 Silverstone race. I believe it is Hunt that describes the lifting motion (calls it "popping the diffusor"), and you can see it clearly during the race. It raises the rear. It does not lower it!
The FW15 constantly changed its set-up and also its rake angle. So it also was probably that feature for more rake or for a higher AoA of the rearwing. But the lifting motion to be the push-to-pass button just makes no sense. Underfloor and diffuser have much less drag than a rearwing. But by lifting the rear you would get a lot more rearwing-drag because of a higher AoA and only a small reduction of drag by the stalled diffuser. So you would have more drag. Not less. So sorry, but this does not make any sense in my opinion. And i also do not think Formula1 itself and experts like Piola and Hughes(who already were experts in that era and both probably know this car better than any other expert)would be wrong about such an essential feature of this famous car.
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:31 pm


I do not remember such a wing in the 90's. In 2010 there were rearwings the driver was able to stall. This was called F-Duct. This was a complex system of channels to reduce drag. The driver was controled it by a hole in the cockpit. When he left it open, the inlet sucked air into the cockpit, while the air that entered through the airbox flew through an interconnection and out of the lower end of the engine cover. When the driver closed the hole with his leg(later ellbow) the air that was sucked in flew through another channel and mixed itself with the air coming from the airbox and was led to the rearwing instead. This flow disrupted the flow over the rear flapand induced a stall(trailing edge flow)and thereby reducing drag. There even were different versions of the F-Duct for different circuits. Here is an article about it :

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tec ... echnology/
I suggest you watch it yourself. You say your source is more trustable than the video evidence. I don't know how to help you after that.😬

Ugh... These downvote buttons🙄
Like i said in my post - you probably misunderstand this feature. This was not the push-to pass button. Like i explained it makes no sense as it would result in more drag. And sorry - but there probably are not many sources that are more trustworthy than Giorgio Piola and Marc Hughes. They did not watch videos. They laid hands on these cars and stand next to them many times...and talked to the guys who built these cars. And by the way - James Hunt was already dead when the race in Silverstone 1993 took place.

Edit : sorry, i do understand the downvote for being off - topic, but i cannot leave such a statement without any comment
Last edited by Andi76 on Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Andi76 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:32 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:25 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:14 pm


The FW15 constantly changed its set-up and also its rake angle. So it also was probably that feature for more rake or for a higher AoA of the rearwing. But the lifting motion to be the push-to-pass button just makes no sense. Underfloor and diffuser have much less drag than a rearwing. But by lifting the rear you would get a lot more rearwing-drag because of a higher AoA and only a small reduction of drag by the stalled diffuser. So you would have more drag. Not less. So sorry, but this does not make any sense in my opinion. And i also do not think Formula1 itself and experts like Piola and Hughes(who already were experts in that era and both probably know this car better than any other expert)would be wrong about such an essential feature of this famous car.

I suggest you watch it yourself. You say your source is more trustable than the video evidence. I don't know how to help you after that.😬

Ugh... These downvote buttons🙄
Like i said in my post - you probably misunderstand this feature. This was not the push-to pass button. Like i explained it makes no sense as it would result in more drag. And sorry - but there probably are not many sources that are more trustworthy than Giorgio Piola and Marc Hughes. They did not watch videos. They laid hands on these cars and stand next to them many times...and talked to the guys who built these cars. And by the way - James Hunt was already dead when the race in Silverstone 1993 took place.
Ok. Then watch the race to see the actual use of the system? Instead, you'd rather confirmation bias to an article that agrees with you? It may not make sense to you, but the designer and team operated it that way anyway.🙄

I got another source from 9 years ago that agrees too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _the_most/

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carisi2k
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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The FW15C didn't have a push to pass button so much as a push to stall button. At the push of a button the FW15C's active suspension would reduce the ride height at the rear of the car in a straight line to stall the floor and allow the increase in speed. The active suspension mitigated the porpoising that you now see in some of the 2022 cars like the Ferrari, Haas and Mercedes. There was no trick wing system but this stall feature did allow the FW14b and 15c to run more wing which you now see on the RB18.

This is why the RB18 is so ingenious because they essentially seem to have the benefit of this old active suspension trick all the while still achieving a decent amount of downforce all without the trick suspension systems available in 1993 or 2021 and achieved with no porpoising at all as a side effect. My belief is that the underfloor design is the main reason the RB18 doesn't porpoise but it does then allow Red Bull to optimise the setting to get this top speed advantage even though I believe the power units are roughly the same on performance.

If this front bar is indeed a form of leaf spring then there is no way that the FIA could ban what is probably the oldest form of suspension in the world.