TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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I have often said that this so-called TERS will give about 10-20% 'free' power (as the NACA showed nearly 70 years ago)
and so can reasonably be regarded as increasing maximum engine efficiency by that 10-20%
ie we can get 10-20% more power at that same rate of fuel consumption

however,typically this does not lend itself to reduced fuel consumption (eg of road cars)
at partial torque/power the 'free' torque/power will be cancelled by increased throttling to contain output to that partial torque
this is how we drive the public highway
true, this effect would be slighty offset if the gearing were raised by the 3-4% permitted by the 10-20% output gain
(this situation is a parallel to the somewhat futile raising of CR/fuel Octane for road cars)
greater offset is of course available if the car has a large but conveniently empty store for energy recovery
though this is anyway not particularly efficient (compared with direct use of exhaust-recovered electrical energy)

to get the proper economy benefit from TERS we need to further downsize the engine correspondingly about 10-20%
(this beyond the already envisaged level of downsizing-by-turbocharging)
ie we should design our (electrically) turbo-compounded engine to the same power as the uncompounded engine we are replacing

though old-school downsizing by customer (buying only twice the engine power needed not five times) works with any engine type
as does the the elimination of throttling inefficiency by other means ie radical redesign of engine or transmission

one aim of the 2014 activity is to facilitate hybridisation by stealth and covert European (and Japanese ?) protectionism
this involves buying complicated and expensive cars
the 3 European parents of these F1 engines are all supported to some extent by 'public-interest' oriented investment

once, in 1991, the French govt campaigned (unsuccessfully of course) for EU policy to encourage the small-engined, simple cars
at one time also the Japanese govt encouraged these

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dren
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Yes, Honda is now coming out with a new line of all turbo downsized engines. The president has hinted that the technology in F1 now is the reason for them returning, and hints at electric compounding just like in F1 for future developments. Not sure if the governments are driving the companies or if the companies are driving the government regulations. I'd say a little bit of both.

As for your other statement about all MGUH energy going to stores, that's interesting. The press release about the Renault unit hinted at splitting the energy. It would make controls simpler if all goes to stores, but then that is less efficient.
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wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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dren wrote:As for your other statement about all MGUH energy going to stores, that's interesting. The press release about the Renault unit hinted at splitting the energy. It would make controls simpler if all goes to stores, but then that is less efficient.
Less eficient, and also could, potentially, be cheating yourself out of energy.

Take Spa. Long lap, somewhere between 100 and 110s. Quite large percentage at full power.

The ES can only give the MGU-K 4MJ per lap. Lets say we get 1MJ per lap from braking to be stored in the ES (maximum is 2MJ). That leaves 3MJ we can use to store the output of the MGU-H.

If we take the 100s lap, that would be an average of 30kW that needs to be generated by the MGU-H over that lap to fill the ES. Any more than that would have to be wasted, if it is not used directly.

LoneStarStraits
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Does anyone have any idea what sort of power output will be got from the turbine (minus power to the compressor)? The MGU-H unit shown by MM in Monza was reportedly rated at 90kW - was thinking whether this sort of power would be available for much of the time when on full throttle.

dragosmp
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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LoneStarStraits wrote:Does anyone have any idea what sort of power output will be got from the turbine (minus power to the compressor)? The MGU-H unit shown by MM in Monza was reportedly rated at 90kW - was thinking whether this sort of power would be available for much of the time when on full throttle.
Wasn't that 80kW? That's the number that kinda stuck in my head.

The energy recovered by the H should supplement what is supplied by the battery with the penalty of adding some back-pressure on the exhaust; as such I imagine you want to pull as little energy from the exhaust as possible while still having enough to be feeding the K.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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dragosmp wrote:The energy recovered by the H should supplement what is supplied by the battery with the penalty of adding some back-pressure on the exhaust; as such I imagine you want to pull as little energy from the exhaust as possible while still having enough to be feeding the K.
at this level of supercharge and compounding efficiency there should be 6% exhaust recovery (after driving the compressor)
without loss of crankshaft power, ie without any backpressure, purely from the exhaust 'pulses'
ie 6% more power than a turbocharged engine, for the same fuel

with backpressure working (for a fixed fuel amount) recovered power will rise more than crankshaft power falls
20% recovery should be possible, giving (by compounding) about 12% more power than a turbo engine for the same fuel
(this working requires suitably early EV closure to avoid dilution with exhaust gas)

the MGU-H power given is notionally a continuous value ? this implies makes typically 100 kW when the driver's foot is down

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godlameroso
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Does this mean that, at for example running full throttle, instead of wasting exhaust gases, the MGU-H will give power to the MGU-K by harvesting excess turbine energy while maintaining a specific boost pressure?
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Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Gary Anderson's analysis of the new ERS system for 2014.

Image
via AutoSport

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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godlameroso wrote:Does this mean that, at for example running full throttle, instead of wasting exhaust gases, the MGU-H will give power to the MGU-K by harvesting excess turbine energy while maintaining a specific boost pressure?
yes
IMO about 100 kW when the driver's right foot is planted (corresponding to the continuous? rating given for the MM mgu-h)

@ C X
seems to be a contradiction in Mr Anderson's piece
the graphic caption seems to say that the car is only driven electrically on electricity from storage

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dren
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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And he states only the MGUK will drive the wheels out of slow speed corners. They will have to drop revs very low in order to do this and be within the rules or have a selectable map just for certain corners.
Honda!

riff_raff
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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A conventional turbocharger (like the ones used in F1) is a device that is designed to operate with an energy balance between the turbine and compressor. If there is more energy being extracted from the exhaust flow at the turbine by the TERS than is being added to the intake flow by the compressor, then that additional energy has to come from some source between the compressor and turbine.
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wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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riff_raff wrote:A conventional turbocharger (like the ones used in F1) is a device that is designed to operate with an energy balance between the turbine and compressor. If there is more energy being extracted from the exhaust flow at the turbine by the TERS than is being added to the intake flow by the compressor, then that additional energy has to come from some source between the compressor and turbine.
A conventional turbo doesn't need all the energy in the exhaust to provide power to drive the compressor, so exhaust is dumped via a wastegate. The balancing in a conventional turbine is between how much power the turbine creates and how much the compressor needs.

The energy that is normally dumped is what is being harnessed.

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Blackout
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Gary Anderson's analysis of the new ERS system for 2014.

http://imageshack.com/a/img22/2776/55f7.jpg
via AutoSport
I read in the regulations that the energy store (or more precisely: the part that stores enrgy within the battery) is NOT counted within the 145kg... and that only the part that stores energy must be between 20-25kg... so the battery overall can weight 26, 27 etc kilos...

wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Blackout wrote:
Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Gary Anderson's analysis of the new ERS system for 2014.

http://imageshack.com/a/img22/2776/55f7.jpg
via AutoSport
I read in the regulations that the energy store (or more precisely: the part that stores enrgy within the battery) is NOT counted within the 145kg... and that only the part that stores energy must be between 20-25kg... so the battery overall can weight 26, 27 etc kilos...
Correct - it is in Appendix 2.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Blackout wrote:
Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Gary Anderson's analysis of the new ERS system for 2014.

http://imageshack.com/a/img22/2776/55f7.jpg
via AutoSport
I read in the regulations that the energy store (or more precisely: the part that stores enrgy within the battery) is NOT counted within the 145kg... and that only the part that stores energy must be between 20-25kg... so the battery overall can weight 26, 27 etc kilos...
No vanadium flow batteries basically.
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