TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
ringo
227
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

Havent gone through all the data, but 3 bars at what rpm?
and i think that is too high for these engines. Im using a 14:1 compression ratio, and using the the mass of fuel and air, i don't come out with 3 bar of boost at 10,500. I have an engine intake temp of around 40 degrees C.
For Sure!!

gruntguru
gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

ringo wrote:Havent gone through all the data, but 3 bars at what rpm?
and i think that is too high for these engines. Im using a 14:1 compression ratio, and using the the mass of fuel and air, i don't come out with 3 bar of boost at 10,500. I have an engine intake temp of around 40 degrees C.
Is it not possible that intake temp is deliberately high (70*C as in Honda RA168e) or even higher?

Are you still unable to accept that AFR is 1.2 or higher? Until you do you will be unable to reconcile the actual boost - which all the evidence suggests is in the range of 3.0 to 3.5 bar at 10,500 rpm for the various teams.
je suis charlie

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

AFR at 10500 rpm must be very different to AFR at 12500 rpm if the boost is kept constant
if the boost is made to fall suitably as rpm rises above 10500 the AFR can be kept constant
primarily reducing power taken by the compressor
if the exhaust pressure is maintained via generator load we increase recovery but are tending into -dP
(don't our road cars work fine down to a -0.8 bar dP (at idle) without notable negative scavenge ?)

btw - aren't the reporters saying eg that only Merc is over 3 bar (3.15 was the figure given, and Renault 2.7 ?)

gruntguru
gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

There was a Benzing article linked sometime last year that had all engines in the 3 bar+ category. Renault claimed 3.5 bar max boost way back at their first release.
je suis charlie

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

the values I suggested were my 'iirc' from someone's near-current post
we can anyway set aside the question the question of the nominal boost (and AFR)
because anyway, whatever the boost and AFR the engine at 10500 rpm engine is a different animal to the engine at 12500 rpm

3 years ago I asked - (going from eg 10500 to 12500) do they ? .....
maintain the boost and increase the AFR ?
maintain the AFR and reduce the boost ?
something else ?

the (obvious) first is vulnerable to achievable compressor efficiency ?

gruntguru
gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

Maintaining constant AFR from 10,500 to 15,000 (assuming constant CAT) would be a vertical line on the compressor map (fuel flow is constant so air flow will be also). It would not be difficult to find a suitable compressor.

As rpms decrease below 10,500 the boost required for constant AFR would be very close to constant (horizontal line on the compressor map) since the fuel flow formula permits (almost) a constant fuel quantity per engine revolution. This would be the difficult characteristic to match - moving to the left of the compressor map from close to the efficiency peak (at 10,500) it is only a short distance to the surge line. Boost will have to be reduced as rpm is further decreased.

It may be more efficient (higher power) to compromise AFR and follow say the 70% efficiency line down rather than the surge line.

Image
je suis charlie

User avatar
Abarth
45
Joined: 25 Feb 2011, 19:47

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

As there is about constant power between 10'500 and say 12'500, operation below 10'500 is during very short time anyway. Leaving optimum between 7'000 and 9'000 will not cost too much overall.

gruntguru
gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

. . and of course the map above is just a random map that happens to be close (courtesy of Edis). The teams will be using a compressor that is best suited to their pressure and flow requirements.
je suis charlie

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

I thank you for answering my question (asked at intervals over the last 3 years)
ie the '10500 boost' would drift down as rpm rises towards 12500 so that AFR is constant throughout

so above 10500 the piston CR is becoming sub-optimal, costing crankshaft power

your plot at 10500 is based on PR = 3
and falls to eg PR = 2.5 at 12500
this PR = 2.5 implies a lower Brayton power recovery in particular

your own figures of 15 June seem to demand at a PR = 2.5 a stoichiometric mixture (AFR = 14.5) ?
(I think that an AFR = 15.9 might be correct ??)

and if we assume fwiw the apparent consensus that MAP = 3, this roughly gives PR = 2.5 at 10500 and PR = 2 at 12500
afaik these PRs imply a lower AFR than otherwise, and lower Brayton power recovery (or none ???)

btw - the 1988 Honda air temperature of 70 deg is surely for vapourisation of the unusually high BP fuel (84% Toluene)

trinidefender
trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

If you add in reduced volumetric efficiency above 10,500 then the PR line on the graph wouldn't drop as quickly to maintain AFR would it?

User avatar
ringo
227
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

gruntguru wrote:There was a Benzing article linked sometime last year that had all engines in the 3 bar+ category. Renault claimed 3.5 bar max boost way back at their first release.
Max boost is at really low RPM. Not at the 10,500rpm point. and as i believe its absolute boost, not gauge. But i guess i wouldnt want to drag the discussion into a back and forth over the value.
For Sure!!

gruntguru
gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:I thank you for answering my question (asked at intervals over the last 3 years)
ie the '10500 boost' would drift down as rpm rises towards 12500 so that AFR is constant throughout)
The plot above shows the operating line for the constant AFR case (10,500 - 15,000) but by no means confirms it. It is also possible that the engines are operated at constant MAP (which would run the compressor at lower efficiency and higher speed) or perhaps somewhere in between constant MAP and constant AFR.
so above 10500 the piston CR is becoming sub-optimal, costing crankshaft power
Yes - and so would the constant MAP case - to a different extent of course.
your plot at 10500 is based on PR = 3 and falls to eg PR = 2.5 at 12500 this PR = 2.5 implies a lower Brayton power recovery in particular your own figures of 15 June seem to demand at a PR = 2.5 a stoichiometric mixture (AFR = 14.5)
That would be PR=2.5 at 10,500 not 15,000
and if we assume fwiw the apparent consensus that MAP = 3, this roughly gives PR = 2.5 at 10500 and PR = 2 at 12500 afaik these PRs imply a lower AFR than otherwise, and lower Brayton power recovery (or none ???)
No MAP = 3.0 gives PR = 2.96.

For simplicity, I use MAP and PR interchangeably. The error in this approximation is only 1.3%. (1 Atm = 101.3 kPa = 1.013 Bar)
btw - the 1988 Honda air temperature of 70 deg is surely for vapourisation of the unusually high BP fuel (84% Toluene)
Perhaps, but the chart of CAT vs BSFC in the Honda paper http://www.k20a.org/upload/HondaRA168EEngine.pdf is smooth and peaks at CAT=70-80*C. Honda also heated the fuel to 80*C. Can we be sure that other fuels burn with best BSFC at significantly lower temperatures (less than ambient)? I doubt it - especially at the lean AFRs needed in current F1 engines. The RA168e ran at 0.98 - much richer - and was limited by combustion stability.

Another Honda paper posted previously shows that higher intake temperature improves combustion stability and extends the lean limit. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/04 ... -hlsi.html
je suis charlie

gruntguru
gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

ringo wrote:
gruntguru wrote:There was a Benzing article linked sometime last year that had all engines in the 3 bar+ category. Renault claimed 3.5 bar max boost way back at their first release.
Max boost is at really low RPM. Not at the 10,500rpm point. and as i believe its absolute boost, not gauge. But i guess i wouldnt want to drag the discussion into a back and forth over the value.
I think everyone is quoting absolute here (MAP) - I certainly am.

If boost is rising at lower revs as you claim, the AFR will be getting much leaner. What would be the point?

Furthermore, the compressor will hit the surge line very quickly if you increase MAP at lower revs. If you look at the red line on the chart above, the very begining (lower left end) represents 6,100 rpm so boost and airflow is falling very rapidly at rpm below 7,000.
je suis charlie

User avatar
Abarth
45
Joined: 25 Feb 2011, 19:47

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

Maintaining constant AFR, boost has to raise when lowering revs below 10'500, albeit by a low value (101% at 9000, 103% at 7000).
The mass flow formula asks for a rising fuel allocation per cycle due to the constant of +5.5 kg/h

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

gruntguru wrote:If MAP = BP the turbo machinery is a simple Brayton cycle - the combustor being replaced by the piston engine as its heat source.
In the F1 case, the heat input to this Brayton cycle (Gas Turbine) is relatively fixed wrt PR. The surplus work (Wt - Wc) however, is dependent on PR. The theory behind this is well established.
There are useful calculators here https://www.engineering-4e.com/calc4.htm for compressor and turbine power (you can use the isentropic compression calculator for expansion as well or use the expansion calculator further down the page). The calculators are for 100% isentropic efficiency so the actual turbine work will be about 0.8 times the output from the calculator and the compressor work will be equal to the calculator output divided by 0.8.
Have fun playing. Don't forget to adjust the massflow and turbine inlet temp when you change the PR (boost).
SIMPLE EXAMPLE.
Compressor Massflow = 0.55 kg/s
Turbine Massflow = 0.578 (AFR = 19.6:1)
PR = 3.3
T comp inlet = 298 K
T turbine inlet = 1000 K
Calculator gives Wcomp = 66.8 kW and Wturb = 161.9 kW (Need to use 57.8 kg/s to get 3 significant figures into calculator)
At 80% eff for comp and turb Pcomp = 66.8 x 1/0.8 = 83.5 kW and Pturb = 161.9 x 0.8 = 129.5 kW
Pnet = Pturb - Pcomp = 129.5 - 83.5 = 46 kW surplus.

Now try it at PR = 2.5 and compressor massflow 0.5 x 2.5/3.3 = 0.378 (assuming intercooling to ambient)
Turbine massflow is 0.406 and AFR = 14.5:1
T turbine inlet will be higher - say 1220 K
Calculator gives Wcomp = 33.8 kW and Wturb = 114.5 kW
At 80% eff for comp and turb Pcomp = 33.8 x 1/0.8 = 42.3 kW and Pturb = 114.5 x 0.8 = 91.6 kW
Pnet = Pturb - Pcomp = 91.6 - 42.3 = 45.4 kW surplus.

So interestingly, at 80% isentropic efficiency for the turbine and compressor, changing the PR has little effect on surplus energy to the MGUH. At lower efficiencies lower PR will be favoured and at higher efficiencies, higher PR will produce more surplus energy.
@gg
these calculations do not seem to me supportive of the view that there is any recovery benefit in lean mixtures (driving higher PR)
(and your PR = 2.5 calc has a mistake in the massflow, stoichiometry is actually reached around PR = 2.25)

they suggest that recovery is not higher with a lean mixture ie mixture strength (AFR) is unimportant
this at least is useful eg allowing us to hold PR constant over 10500

if the engines don't at 10500 use much leaning, the downsides (bigger machinery and charge cooler) may be less

the charge cooling need not be great, higher charge temperature may help lean combustion as such (aviation often avoided cooling)
but (with leaning) the bigger charge will still need more cooling (unless you have convinced people that no cooling is needed)
also the machinery will be bigger and less responsive

anyway, my interest is mainly whether or not using extra air materially increases recovery

a PR of 2.5 corresponds to 10% lean at 10500 assuming perfect breathing
Gilles Simon wrote that valve sizes may be compromised to allow the highest CR (smallest chamber) ....
this would depress breathing/VE and need a MEP raised above the usual

having at 10500 a tuned-length exhaust -P occuring at tdc (and not at 12500) helps to make the high -dP workable
so keeping MAP constant to 12500 with maybe little further leaning (as Abarth says, the VE will fall)

F1 could be running 3 bar for some leanness essentially to allow greater CR and so help ICE efficiency
(for a given charge temperature, combustion will produce a lower temperature, this also helps the turbine)
ie not because they think it increases recovered power
anyway at these exhaust pressures the recovery will be quite large

but to the extent that VE is depressed leanness cannot be judged from MAP
is 3 bar 'boost' does not mean the AFR is 30% lean, it could be far less lean than that

also, valve seats can have generous width, so over-scavenge will be unneccessary and some underscavenge will be acceptable
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 26 Jun 2015, 14:13, edited 2 times in total.