Renault R29

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
Miguel
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Re: Renault R29

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I'm not convinced at all by Renault's pace today. I'll go ahead and say that it was all due to the cold temperatures and the hard tires. We should remember everybody was extremely slow today. Many people was lapping in 33's during friday. And remember how bad was the Renault with the soft tires. I think that Renault has a problem with tire degradation, especially with large fuel loads. Today that turned into temperature, and thus could make the hard tires work.
ISLAMATRON wrote:fastest lap? a 1.33.365? that is nothing to boast about... it would have only netted him P6 in Q3 if he actually got there.

Please put these type of numbers in context...
Exactly. Please, put these numbers in context. There is a reason why 1:33.3 is fast, and why that lap is almost a second faster than that set by Button on lap 53, without traffic, and when trying to pull away from Rubens and Fernando.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

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jon-mullen
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ISLAMATRON wrote:fastest lap? a 1.33.365? that is nothing to boast about... it would have only netted him P6 in Q3 if he actually got there.

Please put these type of numbers in context... to get a fast lap you need to have a clear track at the right time(seeing that you usually have fresh tires at the same time as having a heavy fuel load), not many cars get that in the race, usually only the leader and a car who is far whoever is in front of them. The leaders dont usually push too hard after they have already made a gap. Fast laps are not representative and really not that big a deal.
Comparing race laps to quali laps isn't exactly keeping everything in context either, is it?
ISLAMATRON wrote:All that said, the renault seems to have moved forward relative to the field with Alonso setting a great Q1 time even though he was blocked by a clueless Glock. But he threw away a chance at a podium with that Q2 spin.
I got the impression that they've made up a little ground as well, but their performances and strategy have been so erratic that it's been hard to judge where their pace is off. I thought they've been pretty poor in quali trim and then Piquet of all people goes and makes it to Q3. And despite starting Alonso light and in the middle of the grid most races, he'd had a hard time making up spots before the Ring. I think maybe they're off a little here for quali, a little there for race pace, and their strategy has really been lacking. I'm still convinced Alonso can win a GP this season, though, if they get those little bits dialled in.
Loud idiot in red since 2010
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ISLAMATRON
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jon-mullen wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:fastest lap? a 1.33.365? that is nothing to boast about... it would have only netted him P6 in Q3 if he actually got there.

Please put these type of numbers in context... to get a fast lap you need to have a clear track at the right time(seeing that you usually have fresh tires at the same time as having a heavy fuel load), not many cars get that in the race, usually only the leader and a car who is far whoever is in front of them. The leaders dont usually push too hard after they have already made a gap. Fast laps are not representative and really not that big a deal.
Comparing race laps to quali laps isn't exactly keeping everything in context either, is it?
It is when Q3 is on race fuel.

Timomies
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jon-mullen wrote: I thought they've been pretty poor in quali trim and then Piquet of all people goes and makes it to Q3.
He did good lap in hard conditions but also the weather was ideal at the time. I was there and it was crazy. First it was dry and everyone run out when the green light came out. Then it started raining, Nakajima spun and Massa almost spun. Everyone changed to intermediates. Then it stopped and everone changed to softs. This is where Piquet and Sutil made their laps. Then it started raining again at the end. =D>

Miguel
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ISLAMATRON wrote:It is when Q3 is on race fuel.
Data directly from the official Formula 1 site. I may have made some mistakes, since I desperately need a siesta.

Australia: FL - 1:27.7 (Rosberg) Pole - 1:26.2 (Button) Time worth P10
Malaysia: FL - 1:36.6 (Button) Pole - 1:35.2 (Button) Time worth P9
China: FL - 1:52.2 (Rubens) Pole - 1:36.2 (Vettel)
Bahrein: FL - 1:34.6 (Trulli) Pole - 1:33.4 (Trulli) Time worth P8*
Spain: FL - 1:22.8 (Rubens) Pole - 1:20.5 (Button) Time worth P10
Monaco: FL - 1:15.2 (Massa) Pole - 1:14.9 (Button) Time worth P4
Turkey: FL - 1:27.6 (Button) Pole - 1:28.3 (Vettel) P1
Great Britain: FL - 1:20.7 (Vettel) Pole - 1:19.5 (Vettel) Time worth P9
Germany: FL - 1:33.4 (Alonso) Pole - 1:32.2 (Webber) Time worth P6

Conclusion? Islamatron's argument that the Fastest Lap is crap because it doesn't beat the pole lap only holds in Turkey. Even in Monaco, where Sunday is much faster due to the laid rubber and the cleaner line the fastest lap is only worth P4. I put China in just for laughs.

* Even in Bahrain, with Toyota starting very short on fuel, their lap was only worth of P8.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

fer200979
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Miguel wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:It is when Q3 is on race fuel.
Data directly from the official Formula 1 site. I may have made some mistakes, since I desperately need a siesta.

Australia: FL - 1:27.7 (Rosberg) Pole - 1:26.2 (Button) Time worth P10
Malaysia: FL - 1:36.6 (Button) Pole - 1:35.2 (Button) Time worth P9
China: FL - 1:52.2 (Rubens) Pole - 1:36.2 (Vettel)
Bahrein: FL - 1:34.6 (Trulli) Pole - 1:33.4 (Trulli) Time worth P8*
Spain: FL - 1:22.8 (Rubens) Pole - 1:20.5 (Button) Time worth P10
Monaco: FL - 1:15.2 (Massa) Pole - 1:14.9 (Button) Time worth P4
Turkey: FL - 1:27.6 (Button) Pole - 1:28.3 (Vettel) P1
Great Britain: FL - 1:20.7 (Vettel) Pole - 1:19.5 (Vettel) Time worth P9
Germany: FL - 1:33.4 (Alonso) Pole - 1:32.2 (Webber) Time worth P6

Conclusion? Islamatron's argument that the Fastest Lap is crap because it doesn't beat the pole lap only holds in Turkey. Even in Monaco, where Sunday is much faster due to the laid rubber and the cleaner line the fastest lap is only worth P4. I put China in just for laughs.

* Even in Bahrain, with Toyota starting very short on fuel, their lap was only worth of P8.
Bull's eye Miguel

Congrats to f1 technical team for making this great forum possible!! Puxa Alonso!!

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ISLAMATRON
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Great analysis Miguel( I did think that the FL was usually faster compared to the Q3 time)... also note only 3 times were the pole and the FL the same driver, and only 3 times did the driver with FL win the race... my overall point though is that FL is not that big a deal.

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NormanBates
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great analysis indeed (the bar is soooo high in this forum...)

Miguel
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ISLAMATRON wrote:Great analysis Miguel( I did think that the FL was usually faster compared to the Q3 time)... also note only 3 times were the pole and the FL the same driver, and only 3 times did the driver with FL win the race... my overall point though is that FL is not that big a deal.
I was also surprised by the diversity on the Fastest Laps names. The way Brawn treats its tires in warm and hot conditions made me think that FL were going to be almost monopolised by Brawn drivers. In any case, I think the rear graining seemingly caused by uneven tire dimensions has something to do with FL being considerably slower than Pole laps. I've had a quick look at 2008 and FL and poles seem much more balanced. I'm sure that if we look at 2007 (regular tires plus traction control) it will probably look even better for the fastest laps.

I suppose it's possible that FL may improve the pole time if drivers went flat out on their last stint. However, see how that fared for Rosberg in Australia. He had three great laps and then killed his tires. He wouldn't have got any points without the Vettel-Kubica incident.

Finally, I'd like to ask the people who race how big the margin between race and qualy is. I used to think in the past that the only reason why the pole was faster than the fastest lap was a combination on qualy engines + qualy tires + qualy setup. Once all these three things were pulled away, the only variables I can see are risk assumed by the driver and tire wear.

So whenever your favourite driver says he's been driving qualy laps for the whole race, how much of it is true?
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

SZ
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ISLAMATRON wrote:Great analysis Miguel( I did think that the FL was usually faster compared to the Q3 time)... also note only 3 times were the pole and the FL the same driver, and only 3 times did the driver with FL win the race... my overall point though is that FL is not that big a deal.
Four of the fastest five laps at Germany were Alonso, his best almost 0.2 clear of the next.
Eight of the fastest 20 laps at Germany were Alonso.
RBR had five of the top 20.
Button had the 14th.
Trulli had the 3rd fastest and another 3 within the top 10, all laps 51-54.
Two more came from both Williams drivers.
Massa out of the top 20 though well represented in the next 20 in end of stint 2/stint 3.
Kimi's best over +1.5s than Massa's.

ISLAMATRON has a point in that all of Alonso's best laps came after lap 41 - after he got past Kovalainen if I'm not mistaken, but then again his best was on the first flyer after his out lap, so he wasn't exactly fast on no fuel. And all of Webber's laps in the top 20 came in laps 35-37. In his third session, Webber's best was just under 1:34.8. The next more than two tenths off. Whilst race and qual times aren't totally representative, it should be pointed out that of all the efforts above, the top 17 laps were all within a second of Alonso's best - and we all know a second is a long time in racing. They're all simply not as fast in a race - many factors to consider from engine life to the rest of them. Unfortunately for us everyone runs as fast as they need to to win a race, not to amuse people like us on an internet forum wanting to analyse who's outright faster and by how much in an exacting manner.

Traffic makes a huge difference; Webber had around two seconds a lap on Alonso in the first stint. Times 15 or so laps and you've blown your podium chances neatly, so quali is important. Alonso was mega for the first bit of his last stint... I'd suggest his team figured his race was with Barrichello (and maybe Button, who wasn't catching Rosberg fast enough) at the end - his lap times in the third stint only slowed when he came up behind him, and Barrichello put in some of his best laps - including his best - keeping him at bay. Button put in some fast ones, his best were his in/out laps around pit stop 2 - so very definitely racing for position (with his team mate at least).

So all we can really say with any certainty is that Alonso must be kicking himself over qualifying. Webber won comfortably, he swallowed a penalty and considering no one wins going flat out with clean air behind them (why risk it, he won by what, over 10 seconds by another guy in the same car, who had a sh*t race and came in five secs or so from Massa?), we don't know how much faster he could have gone. Quali *really* is important, the first session does a lot for the race - Massa pitted the first stint from 2nd, Alonso from what, 9th, 10th? It doesn't say anything for how fast the cars will be next week on a different track, but Alonso's car had podium pace his round - he had a quicker car than Massa, Rosberg and both Brawns.

Unless the Ferrari's, Brawns, Williams' etc all had issues with the Nurburgring that caused their pace at all stages of the race to drop off, then the R29 has found some pace. We'll see next round.

We also know the RBR was, um, quick :shock:.

mike
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SZ wrote:So all we can really say with any certainty is that Alonso must be kicking himself over qualifying. Webber won comfortably, he swallowed a penalty and considering no one wins going flat out with clean air behind them (why risk it, he won by what, over 10 seconds by another guy in the same car, who had a sh*t race and came in five secs or so from Massa?), we don't know how much faster he could have gone. Quali *really* is important, the first session does a lot for the race - Massa pitted the first stint from 2nd, Alonso from what, 9th, 10th? It doesn't say anything for how fast the cars will be next week on a different track, but Alonso's car had podium pace his round - he had a quicker car than Massa, Rosberg and both Brawns.

Unless the Ferrari's, Brawns, Williams' etc all had issues with the Nurburgring that caused their pace at all stages of the race to drop off, then the R29 has found some pace. We'll see next round.

We also know the RBR was, um, quick :shock:.
Agreed, because we all know that lighter cars will be faster so lets assume they use a new set of softs in quali as well as the start of the race which means they should be flat out on the pace going fast than quali untill the pit stop.
And clearly its not the case, becaue drivers back off during the race, and quiet alot actually, its about being nearly as fast while backing off. When you dont have to push or you being blocked, you are simply slower. Remember how Michael Schumacher used to set a fastest lap or laps after the pit stop to jump people?
Alonso simply had clear air and a mind to push to gain nothing out of it. and thats it, a wiser driver would have known to turn the revs down and nurse the car home. I am sure the other drivers could have done the lap, but for what? Vettel could have risk his second place to have a fastest lap and he didnt. That being said the Alonso's car is clearly better, PIQUET did made it in to Q3 right? or was that Alonso's spot? Alonso's car is not faster than the Ferraris or the Brawns, I mean he could have at least caught jump ahead of the KOVA train after the 1st stint 1.33.365 sooner?

SZ
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mike wrote: Agreed, because we all know that lighter cars will be faster so lets assume they use a new set of softs in quali as well as the start of the race which means they should be flat out on the pace going fast than quali untill the pit stop.
And clearly its not the case, becaue drivers back off during the race, and quiet alot actually, its about being nearly as fast while backing off. When you dont have to push or you being blocked, you are simply slower. Remember how Michael Schumacher used to set a fastest lap or laps after the pit stop to jump people?
Alonso simply had clear air and a mind to push to gain nothing out of it. and thats it, a wiser driver would have known to turn the revs down and nurse the car home. I am sure the other drivers could have done the lap, but for what? Vettel could have risk his second place to have a fastest lap and he didnt. That being said the Alonso's car is clearly better, PIQUET did made it in to Q3 right? or was that Alonso's spot? Alonso's car is not faster than the Ferraris or the Brawns, I mean he could have at least caught jump ahead of the KOVA train after the 1st stint 1.33.365 sooner?
Alonso, or his team, or both contrived to screw up quali. There's no doubt about it. There's no point comparing Piquet as very simply he didn't have the same car - he was running last round's spec.

Not even Schumacher set fast laps when they involved going through people. I think you've missed the point.

Alonso was behind a Sutil-Rosberg-Fisi train in stint 1. He came out, was about a second off on his out lap, then got down to business and was held up by Kovalainen until lap 40. Then he flew on light fuel until his stop, and came out flying after his stop until not being able to pass the Brawns.

Your talk about wiser drivers is misplaced. A driver is in constant communication with their team. Alonso had pace, and his race was with the Brawns at that point. His team would have asked him to push, hard. Evidently they were right, as the Brawn's best pace was much slower than Alonso's this round - yes, anyone can nurse a car home, and Barrichello/Button could have tried, but it's suicide doing so with a faster car up your diffuser. Alonso was faster. The Brawns had to push, and turned their best laps defending against Alonso - both Brawns actually, within one lap of each other - and the better of these laps was almost a second clear of Alonso's. If the Brawns had better pace, a championship at hand and chose to "turn the revs down and nurse the car home" with a faster car trying to overtake them... then Ross Brawn should be looking for new drivers right about now.

Vettel could have gone quicker. There's no doubt. His car is faster. I'm not suggesting Alonso could have beaten him.

Massa, on any adjustment of lap time you can name, did have to race for position on numerous occasions with various fuel loads/tyre life/tyre compounds and was simply not as quick.

I'm not sure what you're on about regards 'jump ahead of' the Kovalainen train. This is F1, not Frogger. When Kovalainen got out of the way, Alonso dropped almost 1.5s off the next lap, which is huge - what else was he supposed to do? Engage the flux capacitor and take half the field in the pits?

Kovalainen pitted first so there wasn't a need to pit and drop back into further traffic, there was nothing to be 'jumped'. Pitting first would have meant carrying more fuel on in and out laps than intended, hardly a quicker way around a track. At any rate, this often wasn't a problem for Schumacher... when you qualify up the pointy end of the field, there's less traffic to deal with.

(Some would argue that having a fast and yet compliant team mate may also aid your strategy :D)

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zgred
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Really Top Secret after so many passes in front of the photographers with the floor.

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Timomies
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That fin doesn't look like anvil anymore? :? Have to wait and see I quess

EDIT: well, I quess it still does.
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imightbewrong
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Found some photos of the latest straight line tests. They have some new parts and a package that looks set for monza.

New front wing end plates, new rear wing, new inner wheel rim shields (comparison with hungary)
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New rear wing, new diffuser (comparison with hungary)
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more:
http://menacef1.dnsalias.com/MenaceF1/g ... +July+2009