autogyro's Transmission Concept

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autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/02/fo ... inability/

Notice the debate going on for running F1 cars in the pits under electric power.
The ESERU allows this with no problem whatsoever.
This is the future.
Just a shame F1 eng has it hidden away in the off topic thread.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Potential F1 engines beyond the 2013 1.6L turbo L4

On the above thread there is a post on the Prius geartrain.
(I cannot comment on the thread having been banned from all threads but this one)

The Prius system retains gear rotation and torque balance between two MGUs and an ICE at all road speeds. The system is less efficient than some pure diesel power trains, which can easily be updated with the addition of electrical storage and bolt on MGUs if required for a first generation inefficient hybrid.

My ESERU does all the Prius system does but in top gear has NO gears rotating in mesh at all, it is also direct drive to the output whether running ICE, ICE off fully electric, combined ICE/electric or in energy recovery mode.
There is only one shaft support bearing rotating in my ESERU in direct top gear.

My ESERU restricts use of the inefficient CVT concept
(dumped by Williams in their KERS) purely to CVT gear shifts between stepped
ratios.
Beat that!

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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autogyro wrote:Image

1
Description

This invention relates to an improved method of converting input torque to output torque in a multi stepped gearbox and recovering energy from and applying energy to a power train.

The unit can be part of a conventional power train, a hybrid power train a kinetic energy recovery system or a full electric power train.

Conventional hybrid power train systems and kinetic energy recovery systems use a gearbox to transfer torque from the main input source, which is usually an internal combustion engine, to the output, torque from the gearbox goes to the drive axle or axles and additional gearing, transmissions, shafts and clutches connect a variety of electric engines and torque multipliers to this primary power train to harvest and apply electrical energy. The electric shift energy recovery unit (ESERU) here described needs no additional external components; with an electric control unit and an electric energy storage device it comprises a complete hybrid system or a kinetic energy recovery system.

The ESERU is a multi ratio stepped gearbox, suitable for vehicles and other torque transfer devices, comprising a number of gear sets
Figure: 1 (1-6), which can be selected independently or in combination, gear changes are made using electro magnetic energy eliminating the need for mechanical, hydraulic or pneumatic clutches and synchronizing assemblies.

The outer component of each gear set operates as a rotating part of an electric engine, using magnets embedded in the outer circumference of the gear set components (1-6) and the static parts of the electric engines (7) which are built into the gearbox casing (16). Electric energy is used to accelerate, decelerate and position components in the gear sets, to allow them to be unlocked or locked with electronic lockers (13), to facilitate the conversion of input rpm to output rpm, controlling the timing of the application of electrical energy and the force, produces a constantly variable and efficient transfer of torque from input to output of each gear set, giving a true seamless shift between a ratio of 1:1 of any locked gear set and the mechanical ratio of the gear set unlocked.






2
The electrical engines recover electric energy to storage from the power train during deceleration and apply electric energy from storage to the power train during acceleration and cruise and/or when electrical power transfer is demanded, eliminating the need for extra gearing between the electric engines and the power train in hybrid, KERS or electric applications and supply the required electrical power for gear changes in all configurations including conventional or full electric application.

Initial transfer of torque, to achieve propulsion and establish inertia in either rotational direction of the single output shaft (14), is achieved by applying electric energy to the electric engines of the gearbox, if another external engine is required to apply torque to the power train after inertia is established, the outer component of the first gear set (1), is brought to stationary using electro magnetic energy and electronic lockers (13), lock this component to the gearbox casing (16), the external engine is then capable of applying torque through this gear ratio to output.
Gear changes between gear sets is achieved by unlocking the engaged gear outer component from the gearbox casing (16), accelerating the outer component using electro magnetic energy, established component inertia and control over the input torque source, to bring the complete gear set to a common shaft rotational speed, locking this gear set, unlocking the next selected gear set, decelerating the outer component of this gear set to stationary, using electro magnetic energy and locking this component to the gearbox casing (16). A wide range of gear ratios and ratio combinations is made available using this operating method and torque application to the power train from both the gearbox electrical engines and an external engine is made available to output over a wide and efficient range.

The ESERU gear train comprises a variable number of planetary gear sets Example: Figure 1 (1 – 6), any one of the three components comprising the gear sets (8,9,10), can be chosen for torque input, any one for torque output and the remaining component locked stationary, giving a wide range of available ratios from a wide range of possible configurations.
The casing lockers engage with slots (18) on the outside of each gear set and the lockers within the gear train engage with corresponding slots in adjacent components. When a sun gear needs to be locked to the casing to achieve a gear ratio, a locker within the static support tube (18) is used.

3

The static tube is an extension of the gear case (16) and forms the main gear train support.

Example of engaged gear set Figure 1: Input from engine (12) through input shaft (11) and first gear sun gear (10), drives planet gears (9), which are forced to ‘walk’ around crown wheel (8), which is locked to the gear casing Figure 2 (16) by lockers (13), the output of the first gear planet gears (9) drives the input sun gear of the second gear sun gear (17) via the first gear planet carrier.

When not selected for use, the gear sets are locked together as one unit with no relative gear motion, giving zero gear torque loss at a ratio of 1:1 input to output, in direct top gear the complete gear train is locked at a ratio of 1:1 input to output, producing no gear torque loss from the complete gear train, the torque output shaft Figure 1 (14) drives the vehicle through a drive axle (15), or other torque transfer device in all gear combinations.

A sliding locker Figure 3 (19) is provided in most configurations, to allow the selection of disengaged gear train neutral.





4 CLAIM

1. A stepped ratio gearbox without hydraulic, pneumatic or mechanically operated clutches, synchronisers or ratio changing mechanism.
2. An energy recovery and application unit, being an integral part of a gearbox that eliminates the need for additional gear sets and the associated control and installation systems.
3. The electro magnetic operation of a gear set producing a seamless constantly variable change of gear ratios, while maintaining a smooth constant transfer of torque from input to output.
4. A method of torque application that eliminates the need for a direct engagement clutch, by establishing the vehicle or output device inertia prior to connecting a separate torque input device.
5. A gearbox without any relative gear movement in gear sets not ratio selected and in the whole gear train when direct top gear 1:1 ratio is selected, resulting in very low torque loss in use.
6. A hybrid gearbox unit that can be configured to replace most current conventional vehicle transmissions to form the basis of a more efficient, compact and lighter hybrid system.
7. A racing car gearbox including integral energy recovery and apply components, without the need for external gear units or electrical engines, making the unit lighter, more compact and more efficient for KERS applications and installations.




5


Abstract

Electric Shift Energy Recovery Unit

A gearbox unit including integral electric engine components 1-7 which are used for operating gear changes and for recovering electric energy from and applying electric energy to a gear train

Figures 1, 2 and 3 to accompany abstract
Just a reminder

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:54 am

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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That looks like patent application. Submitted yet?

Perhaps I'm saying what you already know, but it won't harm.

The day you submit it, before even it becomes checked at patent office and registered, you can feel free to offer it to manufacturers. All you need is a copy of document from patent office that they've accepted your submission and the full explanation, BUT only printed. Don't try to offer your patent by email. Get snailmail/postal addresses of intellectual property/public communication departments of companies to which you'd like to offer it, and than mail it all together.

If there is no copy of document from patent office that they've accepted your submission within envelope, they won't read it, because that is how they protect them selves from unsolicited patent offers.

I've posted mine to major car manufacturers and got decent replies. Just digg for address of proper department within company. The more precise you mail it, more chance that it doesn't get overlooked as fan-mail or something irrelevant.

Good luck!


P.S. With all the crap talk within General chat, this subject really doesn't deserve to lay here on Off topic, since unlike some, it is purely technical.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Patent is applied for.
At least two F1 companies have had sight of it.
The response from them and officials within the FIA and motor industry at the highest level, is that it is worthy of a feasibility study.
This has been confirmed by Cranfield.
On F1 tech however it only warrants an off topic mention.
Perhaps we will soon see a copy from somewhere else.
I have lost a number of ideas over the years in that way, so I wont be surprized.
Still, being retired I am glad to be out of the corrupt rat race, modern industry makes me laugh, the lack of moral values is beyond belief, back to my allotment I think.

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
34
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:21 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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When you first plagued us with extolling the virtues of your drive concept it seemed to me you were a bullshitter. Slowly I changed my opinion and thought there really may be more than pure bullshit & name dropping. Later I was really curious as to what lay behind your claims. I find it very interesting and will follow developments with interest. I really hope it works out for you.

Having you banned from all other threads I quite understand. There is another person I wish was banned from the site completely as he far outstrips your bad behaviour.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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tok-tokkie wrote:When you first plagued us with extolling the virtues of your drive concept it seemed to me you were a bullshitter. Slowly I changed my opinion and thought there really may be more than pure bullshit & name dropping. Later I was really curious as to what lay behind your claims. I find it very interesting and will follow developments with interest. I really hope it works out for you.

Having you banned from all other threads I quite understand. There is another person I wish was banned from the site completely as he far outstrips your bad behaviour.
I am glad you understand the reason for my ban.
Wish I did.

Caito
Caito
13
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:30 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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I never got into this thread before because it was talk and claims. Now that I see(though I don't really understand) I can jump in and hope this is good to someone.


Have you built one?
Come back 747, we miss you!!

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Hi Caito

No, I have not built one, if I still had my transmission company and factory I would.
Unfortunately I am now retired and no longer have the resources.
Cranfield have agreed to a feasibility study but again because of the tight economic climate, they want paying these days.

The narrow focus on regulations in F1 also restrict any proper engineering development IMO. The times are long gone for innovation and fresh ideas.
The eventual change to electric traction will change this but F1 may not survive the change.

My ESERU is realy a culmination of my continued transmission development over 35 years, which included fully automatic racing gearboxes way back in the early 70s and some of the first ideas for the current F1 transmission control systems.

If you have any problems understanding the concept, I will try to explain.

Auto

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Have you approached Ricardo. I gather they are supporting the develpoment of a drive train for a certain bronze super car. That could be more viable than trying to get F1 to change its rules. They've also worked on the current F1 Xtrac box.
Last edited by Richard on Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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I talked to one of Ricardo's guys on the phone to Japan some two years ago.
I was going to meet them at their Cambridge office when they could get a couple of their specialists to come down from up North.

Didnt happen.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Give Ricardo a call again.

I'm sure there is a masters student who could do a formal appraisal, calcs and CFD model for their dissertation. Universities get scored on the links with industry, so liaison with a former F1 engineer/supplier would be good for them. It's also fun for you too, I was running a workshop for final year students in Newcastle last week. It's motivating to meet young, eager & bright students.

If the idea is promising then most engineering departments have innovation companies to further develop ideas on the basis of joint equity. My firm has a couple of those. You said your motive is to get this made, not to get cash, so that approach might suit you?

You just need to pick the right uni, obviously Cranfield is good, and I think Cambridge is local to you? I'd have thought Imperial would be worth a call too.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Thanks for the advice Richard.
I will consider a new campaign.
Before or after I put the broad beans in that is the question.

IMO hybrid and KERS technology is only stop gap anyway.
The future is electric including F1. (not if, when)
...

A simple limit of energy available from any source for a GP and a limit on downforce would be the most sensible approach. (plus safety regs and new circuits)
...
Last edited by mx_tifoso on Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed ranting.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Get the broad beans in the ground first, a spot of horticulture is good therapy for the brain.

I see your point about F1, but its not going to go away, so not worth burning effort tackling that one.

Better to get the box built and used by someone than to let the idea go to waste?

Anyway, uni students are the best route to try out new ideas and have someone throw some numbers at it. Also, do you know about the EngD scheme? It is a work based doctorate, usually costs the sponsoring company roughly £5k per year for 3 years. I'd have thought your box is perfect for that sort of investigation, or a final year dissertation for a masters student as noted before.

Just need to find a Uni who are interested, put together an EngD proposal then tout it to find a manufacturer willing to gamble £15k on an idea, relatively small for manufacturer with turnover in tens of millions. The £15k can be offset against tax as an R&D expense.

The uni will do the touting, they just need your credibility to support them. Rummaging on google brought up a prof who used to be at Leeds Uni who ran EngD schemes with Ricardo. He also mentions hybrid power trains and gearboxes, and lectures at Cranfield. He'll know someone who'll knows someone who'll be interested. Have a read of his CV here :arrow:
http://www.cet.sunderland.ac.uk/~cs0dcr/

There'll be others

Get the broad beans out and then Google :arrow: automotive "engineering doctorate"

Have fun!

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
44
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:22 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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autogyro wrote: On F1 tech however it only warrants an off topic mention.
Auto, start a new thread in the technical bit. Post the concept and the link to the patent application. If you've just been banned unofficially (ie just told don't do it) just do ahead. If the mods have actually removed your posting privelages then just ask one to restore it.

The only reason it's in off topic was becuase it was nothing but cryptic rumour and your word to begin with, which you refused to back up. On the interwebs that usually screams of bullshit.

Now you have a clear concept that we can see and read, it's well worth a technical discussion. It looks really interesting.