F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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ringo wrote:I want to know why the splitter scrapes the ground in the turns, that's what i wanna know!
No explanations yet.
My "Custard Dampers" idea from a page or 2 back would fit that behaviour - as load decreases under lower downforce, damper resistance drops allowing compression to take place as the damper has effectively softened relative to it's behaviour at full load. The damper then re-stiffens as aero load increases.

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ringo
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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avatar wrote:
ringo wrote:I want to know why the splitter scrapes the ground in the turns, that's what i wanna know!
No explanations yet.
My "Custard Dampers" idea from a page or 2 back would fit that behaviour - as load decreases under lower downforce, damper resistance drops allowing compression to take place as the damper has effectively softened relative to it's behaviour at full load. The damper then re-stiffens as aero load increases.
Non Newtonian behavior then?
For Sure!!

newbie
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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wow...the things on this forum! thanks very much for the amusement! :lol:

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ringo
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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:lol:
hey anything is possible, about non newtonian fluid, when he said custard that's the first thing that came to my mind.

I think groves can be cut in the dampers wall at different heights to be displacement sensitive. There are other tricks used to sensitivity to acceleration, velocity, displacement. etc. A custard like fluid sounds like a creative idea though. :P
For Sure!!

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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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ringo wrote:Non Newtonian behavior then?
Precisely!
(but custard dampers has a better ring to it) :D

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forty-two
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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Off topic I know, but you guys watch too much Brainiac!

Seriously though, very inventive thinking!
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

hecti
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Re: Red Bull RB6

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RacingManiac
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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Side question, did FIA end up allowing the ride height change to be done between quali and race? I think the idea was floated in order to curb potential development(legal or not) on ride leveling devices?

thor
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Re: RB6 Ride Height - Custard Dampers

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avatar wrote:A 2 stage damper:

1st stage=standard spring/damper (ride)
2nd stage=custard damper (ride height)

The “custard damper” contains a non-Newtonian fluid (like instant custard – hence the name).

Image

Resistance of the fluid is proportional to the pressure applied. The force exerted on the fluid will drop as fuel burns off (nothing abnormal there).

The fluid being instant custard however, the resistance offered will reduce as the load decreases, causing the damper to compress, up to the the point where (due to the container volume reducing) the pressure reaches a critically high level and the resistance firms to the point where the compression is halted.
- effectively reducing rideheight in it’s adjustment to the new load.

– As fuel burns off, the ride height is reduced…

(just a brainwave – feel free to pick holes)



Notes:

The custard damper must be sprung (relatively weakly) to allow ridehight recovery between Qually and race and not under aero load.

As the majority of load absent until in motion & with the standard spring/damper smoothing the bumps, the [relatively] weakly sprung damper should hold up until the non-Newtonian effects take over under load.

Setup would be relatively knife-edge with instant custard, but then that’s often the norm in high-end motorsport.
Particularly setting avoiding inadvertent rideheight changes under differing loads around a lap, though low rideheaght for ground-effect should be more critical in high aero load in highspeed corners, so setup could target those conditions.

The “custard effect” could of course be achieved with some valve system that chokes/closes off based on the pressure exerted, which would be more tunable, but is a bit more than I can design without putting pen to paper.
Hi,

Why the second stage damper needs a non-Newtonian fluid? Imagine a damper with a huge friction coefficient (over-damping system) based on a traditional hydraulic fluid moving between two chambers "almost" sealed.

Such damper under pressure of aerodynamics (maybe 1,000 Kg of weight) could have a compression velocity of 0,1mm/min and it could be reach 3mm of decreasing in height in 30-40 minutes of Qualifying, giving to the car its best performance at Q3...

Once the car is in the parc femme, the spring recovers the original height in 30 minutes. On the race day and full of fuel the car is in the same way than its rivals at the beginning but during the race the aerodynamics compress the second stage damper again while the fuel is decreasing lap after lap.

At the end of the race the car will be at the minimum height allowed by regulations as in Q3 (empty of fuel) but the rivals are 3mm above in height as in Q3 too.

Is it possible to build such extremely stiffness damper? Why not?

Sorry for my English.

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Re: RB6 Ride Height - Custard Dampers

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thor wrote: Hi,

Why the second stage damper needs a non-Newtonian fluid? Imagine a damper with a huge friction coefficient (over-damping system) based on a traditional hydraulic fluid moving between two chambers "almost" sealed.

Such damper under pressure of aerodynamics (maybe 1,000 Kg of weight) could have a compression velocity of 0,1mm/min and it could be reach 3mm of decreasing in height in 30-40 minutes of Qualifying, giving to the car its best performance at Q3...

Once the car is in the parc femme, the spring recovers the original height in 30 minutes. On the race day and full of fuel the car is in the same way than its rivals at the beginning but during the race the aerodynamics compress the second stage damper again while the fuel is decreasing lap after lap.

At the end of the race the car will be at the minimum height allowed by regulations as in Q3 (empty of fuel) but the rivals are 3mm above in height as in Q3 too.

Is it possible to build such extremely stiffness damper? Why not?

Sorry for my English.
With a standard fluid, the second stage would effectively be a timer, ticking down under high downforce load, to it's lowest rideheight after x minutes of running. - this may in fact be enough for many teams & is simpler!

The non-newtonian idea means that the damper softens as the load decreases, allowing rideheight to drop as fuel is burnt off - a the rideheight decreases in direct proportion to the fuel load. Moreover, the effect can be achieved with valves that close off the flow between the upper and lower chambers when pressure reaches a (tunable) level.

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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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boys,I was talking about this months ago....
It is super simple... you need a cylinder with a piston incorporating a small bleed hole and a specified oil to achieve this effect...the car will sag slowly under load
,so all you have to do is for qualy leave the car on its wheels and before the race jack it up long enough to fully erect the 3 or 4 mm....It could be integarted into the damper ,absolutely no problem ,perhaps doubling up as the top eye of the damper ..

I personally feel the temperature sensitive bumprubber is even cooler yet...

autogyro
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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Fit a flap over the bleed valve that only allows oil to bleed when the car is moving(and working the suspension) and you can time the ride level to go down from the 4mm gained from jacking (to take full fuel load), to finishing the race at the same ride height with nearly empty fuel.

marcush.
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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autogyro wrote:Fit a flap over the bleed valve that only allows oil to bleed when the car is moving(and working the suspension) and you can time the ride level to go down from the 4mm gained from jacking (to take full fuel load), to finishing the race at the same ride height with nearly empty fuel.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I was not about to give everything away.. :wink:

yes of course a small poppet valve wich only opens when the downforce is really pushing on the system would even allow for :
safety car periods,red flags interrupting the race etc..
I´m still convinced this is all absolutly legal.It is a degrading suspension,the sag is nothing more than a sag due to abuse of the car.. like a spring or a bumpstop will degrade over time.... :wtf:

thor
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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marcush. wrote:boys,I was talking about this months ago....
It is super simple... you need a cylinder with a piston incorporating a small bleed hole and a specified oil to achieve this effect...
Yes, you are right. This cylinder with a piston is the "second stage damper" in the figure above, and it should include the stiffness spring to recover the 3-4mm compressed once the car is stopped.

When I wrote "a traditional hydraulic fluid moving between two chambers almost sealed." I was thinking in a small bleed hole between chambers. :wink: Thanks.

autogyro wrote:Fit a flap over the bleed valve that only allows oil to bleed when the car is moving(and working the suspension) and you can time the ride level to go down from the 4mm gained from jacking (to take full fuel load), to finishing the race at the same ride height with nearly empty fuel.
I do not understand your idea. If the car is moving you have a big downforce over the suspensions and when the car is stopped this force is zero. IMO it is not necessary any flap over the bleed valve. The spring recover the height (3-4mm) when the downforce is not present any more.

The time constant of the second order system (the second stage damper with the piston and the stiffness spring) will determine the compression and the recovery time. They could be several minutes ... 30-40 minutes... 8)

In other words, with a such simple system based on the addition of a piston with a bleed hole and a stiffness spring, the suspensions needs a "warm up" time. :lol:

marcush.
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Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

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in fact the preloaded flapper or poppet in series with the bleed hole is the ultimate solution in my view .
this thingy is really simple and can be made absolutely selfcontained ,so nobody has to think about it ,apart from making sure not to lift the car for prolonged times before qualy .
we should try to get a patent on it.. :mrgreen: