F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

[scarbs]

I see your point, but DDD’s did have a precedent set with the extra side diffuser channels used since 2006.

However, I’m not clear quite which suspension rule applies to adjustable ride height, but not every rule in F1 is the F1 rule book, there’s the myriad of clarifications that are never published openly. Driver adjustable ARBs have been banned for 15 years, although which rules applies to make that the case?

I’m sure any team wanting to do run these adjusters will have gone to Charlie Whiting for clarification. If some a team pushes their luck and runs adjustable ride heights, then the scrutineers will need to make their decision at that race. I guess we won’t know until Abu Dhabi…

[marcush.]

Interesting thread and I hate to point this out, but I doubt any form of ride height adjustment during the race is allowed. Since active was banned, no mid race suspension adjustment has been allowed, even driver adjustable anti roll bars are banned. Also, since then wet tyres were made a larger diameter raise ride height, as ride height cannot be altered even for wet conditions.

Thus I would say that any form of adjustment howsoever made in pit stops will be illegal or a severe test of these rules.

I really doubt this ,as we saw again and again front wing anle adjustments during pitstops in the years before the cockpit adjustable wings came into use 2009.

Also it was very often the case that guys did change something on the car and still were allowed to race but had to start from the back as they were in breech of the parc ferme ruling.
you sure are allowed to change the car after leaving parc ferme as long as these changes are not rendering the car technically illegal. But of course one has to look up the rulebook ,in french please...

[scarbs]

A fellow journo, has spoken to Charlie Whiting about this and it will be legal, as long it takes place during pitstops, externally with a tool.

I find this surprising, as that sugests the teams may have been free to alter other suspension settings since 1994 but have chosen not to do so.

[WhiteBlue]

I find this surprising, as that sugests the teams may have been free to alter other suspension settings since 1994 but have chosen not to do so.

It would have mainly benefitted races with changing conditions from dry to wet or vice versa. Perhaps there wasn't enough incentive to get into the thought process. With the refueling ban people are more actively thinking about all aspects of suspension again.

[ISLAMATRON]

With the refueling ban(and thus only decreasing fuel loads) the only way you would want to adjust the ride height is down(unless it starts raining)... with refueling, the desired ride height would have gone down while the car was on track but up when they came in and added fuel... which is why we have not seen this done by the teams before.

Being that the desired ride height will only go down during the races next year, I see them possibly employing a simple 1 way adjustment.. maybe a quick way to remove those suspension shims.

[Richard]

Interesting that ride height adjustment is not allowed in parc ferme:

34.5 If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2.

Thankfully, the skid block will avoid any of them running illegally low mid race and then raising back up in a final pit stop.

Reminds me of the scenario in the 80's where the car's weight was manipulated mid-race. For example "water cooled brakes" in 82 and Tyrell's lead shot laden water tank in 84. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing#1980s

[gambler]

akerman

not to change the subject, but can teams adjust the ackerman
angles during pitstops without penalty?

[ringo]

how do you get around this rule then?

10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the suspension system is forbidden.

Human powered, solar powered..etc..it has to have some input to make the change..and so would this not rule it out?

Pretty sure human powered does not count.

Adjusting ride height isn't anything new, guys. It's just a matter of being able to do it quickly and accurately.

tom I am just aware of this fact this is why I did not even bother to mention the possibilty of a screw type adjustment ,as it implies the problem of not
being foolproof in the context of a 5second pitstop.You need a position A-Position B solution with both ride height setting beeing safely and repeatably achievable .

coming back to the constant bleed down setup ..this bears of course a possible quirk in the 3 or four pistons not bleeding at the same rate thus changing cornerweights ....bad news.so the can only be 2 piston 1 front one rear setup so
you get only a possible change in rake over race disatance...which brings me to a
new idea .

Yes, this is why i think a special hand tool is needed, a motorized one with a preset for # of turns. Though i think it's best to have one screw adjuster per axle to reduce any chances of error.

[dedge]

I have made a new topic without seeing this one, so here is my question... in the right one!

I was also thinking about the height ajustment during the race because of the fuel load change. Thinking of a possible solution I was wondering some things:
- first : what could be the ride height difference between a full tank setting and an empty one?
- second : is it possible to use a system similar to Fox Racing "Brain"? This system is used on Mountain Bike suspension (don't laugh at me, MTB shocks are really precision units!). It consist of a valve closed by a spring, the spring is linked to a mass, and the valve is closing the entire damper fluid. When the bike is rolling on an obstacle, the mass moves because of its inertia and open the valve, this allow the damper to work. If the spring preload is high, the valve will open only on big shocks.
My idea was to made the car running on very soft spring to let it acheive an optimal height. But as soon as a shock is detected the suspension system is opened.

(edit : sorry for my english, I would be pleased to explain if needed)
As this system is really simple, light, and easy to set up, I was wondering if somebody has ever think of it on car racing (not only F1). The advantage would be to have always the optimal ride height without the need of an adjustment.

So, do you think it is legal, and usefull?

[Belatti]

- first : what could be the ride height difference between a full tank setting and an empty one?

Does somebody knows or can estimate wheel motion ratios and spring rates? Then it would be just a matter of assuming a loss of arround 170Kg of fuel and make some easy calculations.

[Belatti]

Another detail: from my experience in sport protos, in our car the corner weights change sensitively with static ride height adjustment. I remark this because any imprecision in the adjusting method or system and setup might go to hell.
I cant imagine to sensitive these cars are to that.

[Richard]

Fox Racing "Brain"? This system is used on Mountain Bike suspension (don't laugh at me, MTB shocks are really precision units!). It consist of a valve closed by a spring, the spring is linked to a mass, and the valve is closing the entire damper fluid. When the bike is rolling on an obstacle, the mass moves because of its inertia and open the valve, this allow the damper to work. If the spring preload is high, the valve will open only on big shocks.

Sound interesting.

McLaren did a press release promoting Koni "intelligent dampers". They seem to be based on responding to different frequencies rather than the inertia in your MTB example. I wonder if there is a delay in the Fox damper? It seems like it needs an impact to release the valve, so the bike will always have impact followed by damping.

http://www.mclaren.co.uk/latestnews/mcl ... rticle=396

ps your English is excellent!

[Roland Ehnström]

- first : what could be the ride height difference between a full tank setting and an empty one?

Does somebody knows or can estimate wheel motion ratios and spring rates? Then it would be just a matter of assuming a loss of arround 170Kg of fuel and make some easy calculations.

Because of the third spring and progressive spring ratios, I think this would be a rather difficult exercise. Teams may also counter this problem a bit by running lower tire pressures at the end of the race, and probably set the car up with harder and more progressive springs (especially 3rd springs) than previous seasons.

[speedsense]

refer back to my post:

a hydraulic solution a la wedge adjusters -spring preloaders -can easily perform the required task.
Advantage is it is at least repeatable and could be easily handled by a central hydraulic input when pitting.(bleed open for low ride height ,pressurize for full fuelload.) easy ,reliable not much in terms of weight .
as we now have most of the front suspension with torsion bar arrangements ,one could easily swap the manual screw type adjuster for ride height ,anchoring the end of the torsion bar to the chassis for the hydraulic piston .At the rear with the third damper horizontally arranged ,you just need a adjustable length damper featuring one end with a pistontype rodend arrangement.also easy to do.

Platform adjusters will only change the corner weights of the car not the ride height.
Third spring/damper setups will also not change the ride height either, as they only control pitch movement amount and the speed of them, whether in squat/dive

On a car with pushrod/pullrods and rockers(bell cranks) with the shocks and springs inboard, as with most, if not all of the F1 cars, the only way to change the ride height, is through the length of the push/pull rods. Otherwise all you are doing is compressing the spring and adding "spring preload".


Adding pressure to the shocks won't change ride height either except in a situation that the shock has hydraulic properties and refuses to go into rebound properly, back to the normal ride height with the wrong effect on the car.

[marcush.]

refer back to my post:

a hydraulic solution a la wedge adjusters -spring preloaders -can easily perform the required task.
Advantage is it is at least repeatable and could be easily handled by a central hydraulic input when pitting.(bleed open for low ride height ,pressurize for full fuelload.) easy ,reliable not much in terms of weight .
as we now have most of the front suspension with torsion bar arrangements ,one could easily swap the manual screw type adjuster for ride height ,anchoring the end of the torsion bar to the chassis for the hydraulic piston .At the rear with the third damper horizontally arranged ,you just need a adjustable length damper featuring one end with a pistontype rodend arrangement.also easy to do.

Platform adjusters will only change the corner weights of the car not the ride height.
Third spring/damper setups will also not change the ride height either, as they only control pitch movement amount and the speed of them, whether in squat/dive

On a car with pushrod/pullrods and rockers(bell cranks) with the shocks and springs inboard, as with most, if not all of the F1 cars, the only way to change the ride height, is through the length of the push/pull rods. Otherwise all you are doing is compressing the spring and adding "spring preload".


Adding pressure to the shocks won't change ride height either except in a situation that the shock has hydraulic properties and refuses to go into rebound properly, back to the normal ride height with the wrong effect on the car.

could you please explain why a rocker pushrod assembly could only alter rideheight by changing pushrod length?
to my understanding you make the assumption that the car does not have any droop in it ,something that might be on the front suspension but surely not in the rear?

As soon as you alter the spring preload or coilover assembly length you will of course alter the rideheight(and leverage..) until you hit physical limits of suspension travel.
Of course this is only true if the car sits on the spring platform you make adjustments to ,so with 3rd springs things could catch you ,no question.