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Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 04:30
by WhiteBlue
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 30189.html
AMuS writes that the problem is old but is made worse by the short duration of the 2010 pit stops and the long second stints. Ferrari may get permission by the FiA to fix all engines that have not been used yet.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 13:43
by raymondu999
I'd be interested in this, and if they use thisto also (inadvertently, of course) help solve some of their cooling issues
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 14:44
by mep
I shortly fly over it and I think it doesn't sound very reasonable for me.
1. They blow up engines during training sessions where it’s no problem to keep full pressure.
2. They years before I never noticed them adding additional air to the car during pit stops.
3. Even when they did so they should be aware of the problem since long time and could have taken some steps before.
4. What is so special about sealing some air? It shouldn't be a big problem.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 15:13
by autogyro
Interesting this. Is Ferrari having a major problem keeping the pressure up on its pneumatic valve system?
I cannot see it being strait oil problems.
This would make sense of; 'it being effected more by short stops and long stints'.
This is also supported by their need to run low rpm, although they say this is for fuel and heat issues.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 15:22
by marcush.
autogyro wrote:Interesting this. Is Ferrari having a major problem keeping the pressure up on its pneumatic valve system?
I cannot see it being strait oil problems.
This would make sense of; 'it being effected more by short stops and long stints'.
This is also supported by their need to run low rpm, although they say this is for fuel and heat issues.
foreign media in air pressure vessels contribute to rediculous high pressures that could put a premature end to seals..so with increasing temps you will instantly run into major trouble...
but it is not since yesterday they use pneumatic valvesprings...so what changed ? New oil formulations eating up the seals which worked for the last decade with no trouble.. How come I hear familar things here..has Shell added some bio into their oils ,perhaps?
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 23 Apr 2010, 16:20
by RacingManiac
Air/pneumatic/gas seal is harder to do than oil seal. the particle is smaller than oil.
Re: Ferrari F10
Posted: 25 Apr 2010, 19:54
by strad
See how hokey it was getting.
Ferrari has found their engine problem...
Their pneumatic valve systems air supply isn't large enough to last race distance. I find it interesting they want to work on their engine when all they really need is a larger air tank. Mighty suspicious..It shows once again that the cars , the drivers, everything was built around these silly inter race sprints..
Four race in to the season and Fernando Alonso is down from eight to six engines while Sauber, whose cars are powered by the Ferrari 056, have had more than their fair share of failures.
According to Auto Motor und Sport, the failures are being caused by a problem with the pneumatic valves in the engines.
The valves are allowing too much air to escape during grands prix and, given the ban on refuelling that has led to shorter pit stops the teams don't have time needed to replenish the engines.
And the bad news for both teams, is that it looks as if the problem can only be resolved should the FIA grant Ferrari exemption from the freeze on engine development.
But in order for this to happen, Ferrari must prove to the FIA that it is a fundamental reliability flaw.
Earlier this year, Renault, who also supply Red Bull with engines, were given permission to change to their engine for "cost and reliability reasons".
Re: Ferrari F10
Posted: 25 Apr 2010, 20:04
by autogyro
I guessed it was a pneumatic valve problem.
They should not be allowed to alter the engine, it is an external anciliary problem. Let them increase the tank size and or redesign this system.
If the FIA allows them to redo the engine it will unlock the flood gates and they will all be getting around the restrictions.
Re: Ferrari F10
Posted: 25 Apr 2010, 20:21
by ESPImperium
But still dosnt explain the STR failure rate as they are the only 056 powered team that dont have a failure to their name. Could they be running a internal top-up tank or do they just have a better installation over the BMW Sauber and works team.
I think the problem could be the 3.5 degree incline that both Ferarri (who do have the incline) and BMW Sauber (rumored) have for the fuel tank. I think its that that could be causing the problem.
Re: Ferrari F10
Posted: 25 Apr 2010, 20:39
by autogyro
I cannot see the incline as causing the problem on is own. The forces on the engine and valve system are far higher from the car operating than from this small angle.
It may be that the incline has forced, or allowed a different instalation location of the air tank. To close to something hot perhaps and this is the problem. Without seeing the design it is very difficult to work it out.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 25 Apr 2010, 23:40
by mx_tifoso
I moved some posts about the engine failures from the F10 thread to here. From Strad's post onwards, to be exact.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 26 Apr 2010, 02:24
by GrndLkNatv
mep wrote:I shortly fly over it and I think it doesn't sound very reasonable for me.
1. They blow up engines during training sessions where it’s no problem to keep full pressure.
2. They years before I never noticed them adding additional air to the car during pit stops.
3. Even when they did so they should be aware of the problem since long time and could have taken some steps before.
4. What is so special about sealing some air? It shouldn't be a big problem.
The engine that blew up in practice was one that had a problem in Bahrain, perhaps a piston and valve had already met up slightly or the leaks were already a big problem due to some oil additive that is eating seals or something.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 26 Apr 2010, 06:59
by Paul Kirk
You're talking about fitting a bigger air tank, but that would only delay the result, they've obviously got an air leak somewhere and it could be at the valve guides or cam followers, this would require breaking the FIA seals to fix. Actually I always thought they used an engine driven pump to keep the pressures up, but obviously not! Can you imagine how difficult it must be to seal the cam followers and valve guides 100% for a whole race, let alone 3 races.
PK.
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 26 Apr 2010, 07:53
by mx_tifoso
So fixing this seal problem isn't doable without the FIA's approval?
Re: Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks
Posted: 26 Apr 2010, 11:41
by autogyro
mx_tifosi wrote:So fixing this seal problem isn't doable without the FIA's approval?
Not if the problem is in the engine. I think the FIA should make sure that this is the case 100% before allowing the seals to be broken.
I am not having a go at Ferrari, they have a problem and they should be allowed to fix it. However, it is essential to make sure they are not pulling a fast one, (which all the other teams would also attempt if they could) and to be sure, otherwise they open the flood gates to the others.