F1technical.net

As the Red Bull RB6 thread seems somewhat polluted at the moment, I thought I'd post a new thread in a bid to get this noticed. James Allen appears to have stumbled upon Red Bull's secret as to why they're so quick in Q3:

James Allen wrote:One interesting observation is that Red Bull has a setting on the engine, whereby the ignition is retarded on the over run, which maintains exhaust gas pressure even when the driver lifts off the throttle. This maintains the performance of the blown diffuser and keeps the downforce up when it’s most needed. It’s not something you can do for more than a lap or two as it damages the engine, but it gives that vital fraction of a second which keeps Red Bull ahead of the rest in qualifying.

Could this be the secret to RB's Q3 pace? No doubt they have a quick car, but they always seem to pull out a bit more in Q3 and this provides a credible reason without resorting to trick suspension, frozen honey, etc. They have a special engine map providing them with more downforce at critical times thanks to the exhaust blown diffuser, but they are only able to run this for a lap or two otherwise they'll damage the engine.

This would explain beautifully why Red Bull dominate Q3 but then fall back in the race. No doubt there are other factors, but I could believe that this was the largest factor involved

A about 3/4 years ago, after reading about EDD's I asked myself a question...

Why didnt they just find a way to keep the exhaust flow a constant rate instead of having it so throttle sensitve? I pondered over it for a while but couldnt really think of a way of doing it.

I read through this article when it popped up in my twitter feed and couldn't quite understand what it means by retarding the ignition; can someone explain to me how this might work?

Wild guess here: You fire the spark really late, after the exhaust valves open.

This way you get the same hot gas flow thru the pipes but you loose much of the torque from pressure loss. You are dumping burning fuel thru the exhausts, kinda running on afterburners. You also need the air intake open, so you loose some engine braking from intake choking.

My first doubt here is if the SECU will allow that. And the second being it would be easily noticeable on track from exhaust note - everyone would have figured that one out pretty easy.

EDIT:MW's and RK's onboards at F1.com show very different downshifts between the two Renault setups: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard.html

gridwalker wrote:I read through this article when it popped up in my twitter feed and couldn't quite understand what it means by retarding the ignition; can someone explain to me how this might work?

pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

But then again I don't think their pace is truly attributable into a single factor. I know I sound very cliché, but it will be a combination of several different factors working together in a single package.

I believe the theory is possible but don't think it is the case of the RB6. As mentioned earlier i would also believe that you would be able to hear if they were running with that sort of engine map for a few laps.

Holm86 wrote:I believe the theory is possible but don't think it is the case of the RB6. As mentioned earlier i would also believe you that you would be able to hear if they were running with that sort of engine map for a few laps.

That does give us something testable to look at - could someone with the appropriate skills put a Q1 / Q3 comparison video together, preferably onboard with the same driver going into the same corner? I know that's a big ask but it would be great if possible and it showed something.

You may be able to tell something is happening with the Redbull engine sounds, but you couldnt be 100% sure as to what they are doing.

If you had a reference microphone at the entrace to a turn during practice, Q1, Q2, Q3 and Race, you may be able to take the race sounds and compare them to Q3 and see if there is any difference. Again, it will tell you that "something is different" but you would not be able to say with complete accuracy "WHAT" is different.

I still think that this is the only believable theory that we've heard as to why Red Bull are so quick in Q3 in relation to the other qualifying rounds and the race. Something has to be causing that effect, and we've had theories from frozen honey to trick driver adjustable suspension, yet something as simple as an engine map that interacts specifically with the exhaust driven diffuser sounds plausible.

That it's on James Allen's website probably means that it's come from an industry insider rather than fan speculation, so at least one of the teams must think this is what they're doing.

mike wrote: pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

I think WRC cars do that to avoid turbo lag, nothing to do with DF.

rjsa wrote:
EDIT:MW's and RK's onboards at F1.com show very different downshifts between the two Renault setups: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard.html

In that page you see MW at Barcelona and RK at Monaco. It can happen that engine maps are way different doe to different requirements in the torque and power curves.

mike wrote:

gridwalker wrote:I read through this article when it popped up in my twitter feed and couldn't quite understand what it means by retarding the ignition; can someone explain to me how this might work?

pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

Erm ... seeing as F1 cars don't have a turbo, this doesn't really answer my question.

rjsa wrote:Wild guess here: You fire the spark really late, after the exhaust valves open.

This way you get the same hot gas flow thru the pipes but you loose much of the torque from pressure loss. You are dumping burning fuel thru the exhausts, kinda running on afterburners. You also need the air intake open, so you loose some engine braking from intake choking.

That is more like it

Belatti wrote:

rjsa wrote:
EDIT:MW's and RK's onboards at F1.com show very different downshifts between the two Renault setups: http://www.formula1.com/video/onboard.html

In that page you see MW at Barcelona and RK at Monaco. It can happen that engine maps are way different doe to different requirements in the torque and power curves.

I agree with you. But still from RK you can clearly hear the downshitfs, while MW emits a low messy growl.

Belatti wrote:

autogyro wrote:Of course it could be something Horner is putting about.

Correct. I think they have mounted a great circus to mislead everyone.

mike wrote: pretty much like how WRC cars keep the turbo running off-throttle, they are just keeping the downforce constant

I think WRC cars do that to avoid turbo lag, nothing to do with DF.

It doesn't matter if you have a turbo or a diffusor both demand volume flow.
So in fact we should look at how it is done on rally cars.
Why do you people never look over the horizon of Formula 1?