Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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All F1 cars respond immediately if tyres are in working range.
Albon is talking about understeering. (steering like a bus) vs a front end that is over-responsive meaning the magnitude of the response is higher.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:37 pm
All F1 cars respond immediately if tyres are in working range.
Albon is talking about understeering. (steering like a bus) vs a front end that is over-responsive meaning the magnitude of the response is higher.
And yet some drivers demand a more responsive front end, so not "all F1 cars respond immediately" to the liking of various drivers.

Ultimately, drivers want a responsive front end (so they get good turn in), great balance (so they don't suffer excessive understeer or oversteer) and a back end that they can trust when the front changes direction.

This whole "driver X likes oversteer", etc., is more of the usual bland nonsense. No driver on the grid wants a car to oversteer at 250kph because they simply won't be able to catch it unless luck plays a huge part.

No one wants "an oversteering car" anymore than they want "an understeering car". They'll want it to be slightly more prone to oversteer in slow corners because that helps rotation, but they'll want a bit of understeer at high speed because that is safe and thus they can trust to carry the speed.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:24 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:37 pm
All F1 cars respond immediately if tyres are in working range.
Albon is talking about understeering. (steering like a bus) vs a front end that is over-responsive meaning the magnitude of the response is higher.
And yet some drivers demand a more responsive front end, so not "all F1 cars respond immediately" to the liking of various drivers.

Ultimately, drivers want a responsive front end (so they get good turn in), great balance (so they don't suffer excessive understeer or oversteer) and a back end that they can trust when the front changes direction.

This whole "driver X likes oversteer", etc., is more of the usual bland nonsense. No driver on the grid wants a car to oversteer at 250kph because they simply won't be able to catch it unless luck plays a huge part.

No one wants "an oversteering car" anymore than they want "an understeering car". They'll want it to be slightly more prone to oversteer in slow corners because that helps rotation, but they'll want a bit of understeer at high speed because that is safe and thus they can trust to carry the speed.
A driver can want a car with oversteering tendency but he doesn't will allow it to oversteer. So Albon is saying that Max makes an unstable car look stable.
“He wants a car that is social into a corner, it’s unbelievable. He really likes to play with the car. But when you look at the steering it looks super smooth, but it’s not. I can tell you that car is extremely sharp. And the secret is speed.
He's saying that Max is continuosly making very fast adjustments ("the secret is speed") to a car that turns on a dime, that look very smooth from outside.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:07 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:24 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:37 pm
All F1 cars respond immediately if tyres are in working range.
Albon is talking about understeering. (steering like a bus) vs a front end that is over-responsive meaning the magnitude of the response is higher.
And yet some drivers demand a more responsive front end, so not "all F1 cars respond immediately" to the liking of various drivers.

Ultimately, drivers want a responsive front end (so they get good turn in), great balance (so they don't suffer excessive understeer or oversteer) and a back end that they can trust when the front changes direction.

This whole "driver X likes oversteer", etc., is more of the usual bland nonsense. No driver on the grid wants a car to oversteer at 250kph because they simply won't be able to catch it unless luck plays a huge part.

No one wants "an oversteering car" anymore than they want "an understeering car". They'll want it to be slightly more prone to oversteer in slow corners because that helps rotation, but they'll want a bit of understeer at high speed because that is safe and thus they can trust to carry the speed.
A driver can want a car with oversteering tendency but he doesn't will allow it to oversteer. So Albon is saying that Max makes an unstable car look stable.
“He wants a car that is social into a corner, it’s unbelievable. He really likes to play with the car. But when you look at the steering it looks super smooth, but it’s not. I can tell you that car is extremely sharp. And the secret is speed.
He's saying that Max is continuosly making very fast adjustments ("the secret is speed") to a car that turns on a dime, that look very smooth from outside.
Unless he's moving his hands faster than the eye can see, that's not what he's saying. Max has a front end that is super sharp and he is good enough to be able to apply exactly the required amount of lock to get the turn in he wants. Albon, et al, just can't match Max's ability to get the right amount of lock every time. And so they end up fighting the front end - either too little lock or too much - and thus lose time. Max's ability to get the right lock on every time is the secret to getting speed from that car.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Zynerji
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:12 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:07 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:24 pm

And yet some drivers demand a more responsive front end, so not "all F1 cars respond immediately" to the liking of various drivers.

Ultimately, drivers want a responsive front end (so they get good turn in), great balance (so they don't suffer excessive understeer or oversteer) and a back end that they can trust when the front changes direction.

This whole "driver X likes oversteer", etc., is more of the usual bland nonsense. No driver on the grid wants a car to oversteer at 250kph because they simply won't be able to catch it unless luck plays a huge part.

No one wants "an oversteering car" anymore than they want "an understeering car". They'll want it to be slightly more prone to oversteer in slow corners because that helps rotation, but they'll want a bit of understeer at high speed because that is safe and thus they can trust to carry the speed.
A driver can want a car with oversteering tendency but he doesn't will allow it to oversteer. So Albon is saying that Max makes an unstable car look stable.
“He wants a car that is social into a corner, it’s unbelievable. He really likes to play with the car. But when you look at the steering it looks super smooth, but it’s not. I can tell you that car is extremely sharp. And the secret is speed.
He's saying that Max is continuosly making very fast adjustments ("the secret is speed") to a car that turns on a dime, that look very smooth from outside.
Unless he's moving his hands faster than the eye can see, that's not what he's saying. Max has a front end that is super sharp and he is good enough to be able to apply exactly the required amount of lock to get the turn in he wants. Albon, et al, just can't match Max's ability to get the right amount of lock every time. And so they end up fighting the front end - either too little lock or too much - and thus lose time. Max's ability to get the right lock on every time is the secret to getting speed from that car.
I'd think throttle balance + steering lock is probably the full picture on that, but what you said makes sense.

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:12 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:07 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:24 pm

And yet some drivers demand a more responsive front end, so not "all F1 cars respond immediately" to the liking of various drivers.

Ultimately, drivers want a responsive front end (so they get good turn in), great balance (so they don't suffer excessive understeer or oversteer) and a back end that they can trust when the front changes direction.

This whole "driver X likes oversteer", etc., is more of the usual bland nonsense. No driver on the grid wants a car to oversteer at 250kph because they simply won't be able to catch it unless luck plays a huge part.

No one wants "an oversteering car" anymore than they want "an understeering car". They'll want it to be slightly more prone to oversteer in slow corners because that helps rotation, but they'll want a bit of understeer at high speed because that is safe and thus they can trust to carry the speed.
A driver can want a car with oversteering tendency but he doesn't will allow it to oversteer. So Albon is saying that Max makes an unstable car look stable.
“He wants a car that is social into a corner, it’s unbelievable. He really likes to play with the car. But when you look at the steering it looks super smooth, but it’s not. I can tell you that car is extremely sharp. And the secret is speed.
He's saying that Max is continuosly making very fast adjustments ("the secret is speed") to a car that turns on a dime, that look very smooth from outside.
Unless he's moving his hands faster than the eye can see, that's not what he's saying. Max has a front end that is super sharp and he is good enough to be able to apply exactly the required amount of lock to get the turn in he wants. Albon, et al, just can't match Max's ability to get the right amount of lock every time. And so they end up fighting the front end - either too little lock or too much - and thus lose time. Max's ability to get the right lock on every time is the secret to getting speed from that car.
I would go as far as to say he is pre-empting the required input rather than reacting at lightspeed.
He predicts the next required move and is already making it.
Not possible? watch a boxer.
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Dee
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:12 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:07 am


A driver can want a car with oversteering tendency but he doesn't will allow it to oversteer. So Albon is saying that Max makes an unstable car look stable.



He's saying that Max is continuosly making very fast adjustments ("the secret is speed") to a car that turns on a dime, that look very smooth from outside.
Unless he's moving his hands faster than the eye can see, that's not what he's saying. Max has a front end that is super sharp and he is good enough to be able to apply exactly the required amount of lock to get the turn in he wants. Albon, et al, just can't match Max's ability to get the right amount of lock every time. And so they end up fighting the front end - either too little lock or too much - and thus lose time. Max's ability to get the right lock on every time is the secret to getting speed from that car.
I would go as far as to say he is pre-empting the required input rather than reacting at lightspeed.
He predicts the next required move and is already making it.
Not possible? watch a boxer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _analysis/

I like this description of Max's driving from the link above

"His driving technique is more akin to a precise 12-hour operation conducted by a brain surgeon according to a thought-out plan, than to the hot-headed behaviour of a young man in his twenties. The biggest trick of Verstappen’s speed is that he steers for a minimal amount of time and as the car starts to rotate, he controls it with the pedals, this is also an important aspect of his good tire management. His other even by F1 standards outstanding virtue is the precision of his “inner clock”, which leads to him arriving at every corner at the same exact point and in the exact way as he planned to do. He does this at every stage of the race regardless of speed or tire life. It’s no surprise that his teammates have a hard time"

Pre-empting is right on the money, he knows what the car will do and plans for it.



Similar things said in this link, around 5.30. When you can predict the grip levels and you are certain how the car will react then you will be extremely fast.

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:14 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:12 am

I would go as far as to say he is pre-empting the required input rather than reacting at lightspeed.
He predicts the next required move and is already making it.
Not possible? watch a boxer.

I like this description of Max's driving from the link above

"His driving technique is more akin to a precise 12-hour operation conducted by a brain surgeon according to a thought-out plan, than to the hot-headed behaviour of a young man in his twenties. The biggest trick of Verstappen’s speed is that he steers for a minimal amount of time and as the car starts to rotate, he controls it with the pedals, this is also an important aspect of his good tire management. His other even by F1 standards outstanding virtue is the precision of his “inner clock”, which leads to him arriving at every corner at the same exact point and in the exact way as he planned to do. He does this at every stage of the race regardless of speed or tire life. It’s no surprise that his teammates have a hard time"

Pre-empting is right on the money, he knows what the car will do and plans for it.


Similar things said in this link, around 5.30. When you can predict the grip levels and you are certain how the car will react then you will be extremely fast.
I will agree with that, I don't think I have ever seen Max 'drift' (well possibly a few times on throttle out of a curve when it positioned him for a follow on) but he is always 'on the edge' not over it.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Dee
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:32 pm
Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:14 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:07 pm


I would go as far as to say he is pre-empting the required input rather than reacting at lightspeed.
He predicts the next required move and is already making it.
Not possible? watch a boxer.

I like this description of Max's driving from the link above

"His driving technique is more akin to a precise 12-hour operation conducted by a brain surgeon according to a thought-out plan, than to the hot-headed behaviour of a young man in his twenties. The biggest trick of Verstappen’s speed is that he steers for a minimal amount of time and as the car starts to rotate, he controls it with the pedals, this is also an important aspect of his good tire management. His other even by F1 standards outstanding virtue is the precision of his “inner clock”, which leads to him arriving at every corner at the same exact point and in the exact way as he planned to do. He does this at every stage of the race regardless of speed or tire life. It’s no surprise that his teammates have a hard time"

Pre-empting is right on the money, he knows what the car will do and plans for it.


Similar things said in this link, around 5.30. When you can predict the grip levels and you are certain how the car will react then you will be extremely fast.
I will agree with that, I don't think I have ever seen Max 'drift' (well possibly a few times on throttle out of a curve when it positioned him for a follow on) but he is always 'on the edge' not over it.
And when he does lose it, he gets it back under control (if he gets the space and track to do so)

I used to watch F1 when I was a kid with my Dad, stopped watching when I went to college and then I stumbled upon that save of the century vid of Max saving the car in Brazil, I was like "Who IS this guy??", then I heard his radio after "hearbeat went a bit higher there" and I was gone, talent and a personality, sign me up and I have been on this thrill ride ever since.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:32 pm
Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:14 pm



I like this description of Max's driving from the link above

"His driving technique is more akin to a precise 12-hour operation conducted by a brain surgeon according to a thought-out plan, than to the hot-headed behaviour of a young man in his twenties. The biggest trick of Verstappen’s speed is that he steers for a minimal amount of time and as the car starts to rotate, he controls it with the pedals, this is also an important aspect of his good tire management. His other even by F1 standards outstanding virtue is the precision of his “inner clock”, which leads to him arriving at every corner at the same exact point and in the exact way as he planned to do. He does this at every stage of the race regardless of speed or tire life. It’s no surprise that his teammates have a hard time"

Pre-empting is right on the money, he knows what the car will do and plans for it.


Similar things said in this link, around 5.30. When you can predict the grip levels and you are certain how the car will react then you will be extremely fast.
I will agree with that, I don't think I have ever seen Max 'drift' (well possibly a few times on throttle out of a curve when it positioned him for a follow on) but he is always 'on the edge' not over it.
And when he does lose it, he gets it back under control (if he gets the space and track to do so)

I used to watch F1 when I was a kid with my Dad, stopped watching when I went to college and then I stumbled upon that save of the century vid of Max saving the car in Brazil, I was like "Who IS this guy??", then I heard his radio after "hearbeat went a bit higher there" and I was gone, talent and a personality, sign me up and I have been on this thrill ride ever since.
That was as much good fortune as skill, which I seem to remember him mentioning in an interview later. It did look sensational, however.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:32 pm
Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:14 pm



I like this description of Max's driving from the link above

"His driving technique is more akin to a precise 12-hour operation conducted by a brain surgeon according to a thought-out plan, than to the hot-headed behaviour of a young man in his twenties. The biggest trick of Verstappen’s speed is that he steers for a minimal amount of time and as the car starts to rotate, he controls it with the pedals, this is also an important aspect of his good tire management. His other even by F1 standards outstanding virtue is the precision of his “inner clock”, which leads to him arriving at every corner at the same exact point and in the exact way as he planned to do. He does this at every stage of the race regardless of speed or tire life. It’s no surprise that his teammates have a hard time"

Pre-empting is right on the money, he knows what the car will do and plans for it.


Similar things said in this link, around 5.30. When you can predict the grip levels and you are certain how the car will react then you will be extremely fast.
I will agree with that, I don't think I have ever seen Max 'drift' (well possibly a few times on throttle out of a curve when it positioned him for a follow on) but he is always 'on the edge' not over it.
And when he does lose it, he gets it back under control (if he gets the space and track to do so)

I used to watch F1 when I was a kid with my Dad, stopped watching when I went to college and then I stumbled upon that save of the century vid of Max saving the car in Brazil, I was like "Who IS this guy??", then I heard his radio after "hearbeat went a bit higher there" and I was gone, talent and a personality, sign me up and I have been on this thrill ride ever since.
If I could choose, I would not be a Max fan, but there is no option if you like racing.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Dee
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:34 pm
Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:32 pm


I will agree with that, I don't think I have ever seen Max 'drift' (well possibly a few times on throttle out of a curve when it positioned him for a follow on) but he is always 'on the edge' not over it.
And when he does lose it, he gets it back under control (if he gets the space and track to do so)

I used to watch F1 when I was a kid with my Dad, stopped watching when I went to college and then I stumbled upon that save of the century vid of Max saving the car in Brazil, I was like "Who IS this guy??", then I heard his radio after "hearbeat went a bit higher there" and I was gone, talent and a personality, sign me up and I have been on this thrill ride ever since.
That was as much good fortune as skill, which I seem to remember him mentioning in an interview later. It did look sensational, however.


It was defo both but there are a very select few drivers in the history of F1 to save a car that close to the barriers in full wet conditions. Max talks about the race and that spin (around the 3mins mark) in the link above; He says his luck was that the car went to the right after he locked the brakes. When he saw the car going to the right he unlocked the brakes and waited for the car to grip up and then took it out of the drift. Remember he was 19 here, third year out of carts, 1st year in a red bull he had never tested in! Insane..
Last edited by Dee on Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dee
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:35 pm
Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:32 pm


I will agree with that, I don't think I have ever seen Max 'drift' (well possibly a few times on throttle out of a curve when it positioned him for a follow on) but he is always 'on the edge' not over it.
And when he does lose it, he gets it back under control (if he gets the space and track to do so)

I used to watch F1 when I was a kid with my Dad, stopped watching when I went to college and then I stumbled upon that save of the century vid of Max saving the car in Brazil, I was like "Who IS this guy??", then I heard his radio after "hearbeat went a bit higher there" and I was gone, talent and a personality, sign me up and I have been on this thrill ride ever since.
If I could choose, I would not be a Max fan, but there is no option if you like racing.
If you like racing, you like Max. Any other explanation is invalid.

I for one actually like his personality very very much. Imo, he is closest on the grid in humour to Vettel and has the no bullshit attitiude of Vettel/Kimi. Intelligence of Schumacher/Prost. Aggressiveness of Senna. That's how I view him, no one else needs to agree. Just my opinion.

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Big Tea
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:51 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:35 pm
Dee wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:21 pm


And when he does lose it, he gets it back under control (if he gets the space and track to do so)

I used to watch F1 when I was a kid with my Dad, stopped watching when I went to college and then I stumbled upon that save of the century vid of Max saving the car in Brazil, I was like "Who IS this guy??", then I heard his radio after "hearbeat went a bit higher there" and I was gone, talent and a personality, sign me up and I have been on this thrill ride ever since.
If I could choose, I would not be a Max fan, but there is no option if you like racing.
If you like racing, you like Max. Any other explanation is invalid.

I for one actually like his personality very very much. Imo, he is closest on the grid in humour to Vettel and has the no bullshit attitiude of Vettel/Kimi. Intelligence of Schumacher/Prost. Aggressiveness of Senna. That's how I view him, no one else needs to agree. Just my opinion.

TBH, I was put off by his moves V Hamilton, I saw then as 'over zealous', taking a line that would mean either he passed or there was a big off*. This will not be relevant again as he is now 'collecting points' so will race to finish-- until the next youngster is against him.

*Note please, anyone wishing to extend this into an argument, I will not reply. He did what had to be done.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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You have to be blind or a fool not to see that Max is great driver.

Is he warm and fuzzy? Not really. Am i entertained when he rants on the radio? Yes. Very much. Do I like his philosophy of racing (ruthless do it what it takes no matter the cost akin to Schumacher) not really but I understand why some drivers are like this.
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