Driver styles/preferences

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DChemTech
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:05 am
You have to be blind or a fool not to see that Max is great driver.

Is he warm and fuzzy? Not really. Am i entertained when he rants on the radio? Yes. Very much. Do I like his philosophy of racing (ruthless do it what it takes no matter the cost akin to Schumacher) not really but I understand why some drivers are like this.
Comparing Max and Michael, it seems the front end preference and ruthlessness correlate ;). With maybe a bit of influence of Jos who had to deal with this in his early career too...

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Wasn't Jos Michael's teammate for like a year? Maybe he did in fact "bring up" Max in that "mold" -- as it were. Like sort of bring Max up in the image of Michael, in the hopes it would engender the same level of talent and/or success/results
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DChemTech
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 am
Wasn't Jos Michael's teammate for like a year? Maybe he did in fact "bring up" Max in that "mold" -- as it were. Like sort of bring Max up in the image of Michael, in the hopes it would engender the same level of talent and/or success/results
Yes, and where Michael could get WDC out of the car, Jos ended up with 2x 3th, a series of DNFs and what could have been a reasonably promising career in shatters. Considering how intensely Jos mentored his son, I would not at all be surprised if he used Michael as a template. Although there are alleged differences in style (alleged as in, I read about it but am terrible at spotting the nuances myself), e.g. that Max is a relatively early braker, while Michael braked late. Perhaps that's an era thing though - Michaels style was said to lead to greater wear and fuel consumption, which was less of an issue with infinite parts and refueling allowed.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Tbh let's face it, most people are not good judges of driving style from onboards. Unless you're Peter Windsor and apparently know each minute detail of every driver's style, even if what he's saying doesn't transpire on any onboard I've ever seen.

But those differences in execution, eg your braking example, could also be a manifestation of Jos bringing Max up to be as adaptable as Michael. Perhaps that is just what that adaptation has brought about. In Michael, in that era of flat out sprint racing with refueling and low deg tyres, in Max, what suits the current cars.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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DChemTech wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:09 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 am
Wasn't Jos Michael's teammate for like a year? Maybe he did in fact "bring up" Max in that "mold" -- as it were. Like sort of bring Max up in the image of Michael, in the hopes it would engender the same level of talent and/or success/results
Yes, and where Michael could get WDC out of the car, Jos ended up with 2x 3th, a series of DNFs and what could have been a reasonably promising career in shatters. Considering how intensely Jos mentored his son, I would not at all be surprised if he used Michael as a template. Although there are alleged differences in style (alleged as in, I read about it but am terrible at spotting the nuances myself), e.g. that Max is a relatively early braker, while Michael braked late. Perhaps that's an era thing though - Michaels style was said to lead to greater wear and fuel consumption, which was less of an issue with infinite parts and refueling allowed.
I wonder if Max's braking style comes from his karting days - he drove manual shift gearbox karts for quite a while. You can't be the last of the late brakers in the same way as with a semi-atuo box if you've got to manually clutch and shift gear. Many drivers have come up through series where semi-auto boxes are the norm and so are perhaps used to braking a touch later.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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All of the top drivers are basically biological freaks - they compete from a young age and so develop skills, yes, but then so do an awful lot of other drivers who whilst quick are in a lower league to the cream of the crop. Some of what makes the top drivers in each generation is just down to their biology. The Ayrtons, the Michaels, the Lewises, the Maxes all have a bit of inherent "it" that sets them apart from the rest of the pack. It's often called things like "an amazing feel for grip" and other such hand-waving phrases, but I bet Max himself can't tell you why he can drive the car quicker than his team mate. He probably sits there and thinks "why is he doing that in that corner?" not understanding that his team mate just physically can't do what Max does.
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Dee
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:04 am
DChemTech wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:09 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 am
Wasn't Jos Michael's teammate for like a year? Maybe he did in fact "bring up" Max in that "mold" -- as it were. Like sort of bring Max up in the image of Michael, in the hopes it would engender the same level of talent and/or success/results
Yes, and where Michael could get WDC out of the car, Jos ended up with 2x 3th, a series of DNFs and what could have been a reasonably promising career in shatters. Considering how intensely Jos mentored his son, I would not at all be surprised if he used Michael as a template. Although there are alleged differences in style (alleged as in, I read about it but am terrible at spotting the nuances myself), e.g. that Max is a relatively early braker, while Michael braked late. Perhaps that's an era thing though - Michaels style was said to lead to greater wear and fuel consumption, which was less of an issue with infinite parts and refueling allowed.
I wonder if Max's braking style comes from his karting days - he drove manual shift gearbox karts for quite a while. You can't be the last of the late brakers in the same way as with a semi-atuo box if you've got to manually clutch and shift gear. Many drivers have come up through series where semi-auto boxes are the norm and so are perhaps used to braking a touch later.
I find this an interesting read https://tkart.it/en/magazine/track-test ... allenge/#1, especially the trajectories part of each kart, shifter and non shifter. Max I think is the only karter to win a championship in each (KF and KZ) in the same year (2013) He had to switch driving style every other weekend depending on what he was driving and still won. That is what makes him such a strong driver, he will brake early to get a fast lap and save the tyres but in the heat of battle he can brake as late as possible to get that overtake done.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Max is a consistent early braker. Nothing is wrong with it guys. Its just a different way of driving.
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mendis
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Lando is similar to Max and brakes a bit earlier (than Riccardo) that allows him to stabilize the car for exit better.

JPower
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Switching drivers, I thought it was pretty interesting to hear Sainz talk about his driving style on the Beyond the Grid podcast. He says his driving style in naturally violent and he much prefers understeer. He said he can make any car rotate. With cars with a strong front end though, he said he often causes the car to over-rotate.

Given his struggles with corner entry and balance in the F1-75, I’d say that makes sense. I notice that he uses a lot of steering lock on turn in relative to Leclerc.

Will be interesting to see if next year’s car is as “on the nose” as this year’s. Leclerc, similar to Max, deals with rear end instability as if its wasn’t there. Its possible they continue heading in that direction if it’s beneficial.

BlueCheetah66
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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JPower wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:28 pm
Switching drivers, I thought it was pretty interesting to hear Sainz talk about his driving style on the Beyond the Grid podcast. He says his driving style in naturally violent and he much prefers understeer. He said he can make any car rotate. With cars with a strong front end though, he said he often causes the car to over-rotate.

Given his struggles with corner entry and balance in the F1-75, I’d say that makes sense. I notice that he uses a lot of steering lock on turn in relative to Leclerc.

Will be interesting to see if next year’s car is as “on the nose” as this year’s. Leclerc, similar to Max, deals with rear end instability as if its wasn’t there. Its possible they continue heading in that direction if it’s beneficial.
I reckon next year styles like Max and Leclerc could be even more beneficial. Pirelli have already said one of their aims for the 2023 tyres is to make better front tyres. That will already help the on the nose approach. As well as that the changes to the floor for next year will probably move the balance more to the front tires but that will depend on the teams designs

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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JPower wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:28 pm
Switching drivers, I thought it was pretty interesting to hear Sainz talk about his driving style on the Beyond the Grid podcast. He says his driving style in naturally violent and he much prefers understeer. He said he can make any car rotate. With cars with a strong front end though, he said he often causes the car to over-rotate.

Given his struggles with corner entry and balance in the F1-75, I’d say that makes sense. I notice that he uses a lot of steering lock on turn in relative to Leclerc.

Will be interesting to see if next year’s car is as “on the nose” as this year’s. Leclerc, similar to Max, deals with rear end instability as if its wasn’t there. Its possible they continue heading in that direction if it’s beneficial.
That sounds like Seb too I think. It also suits the suggestion of how the 2019 and 2020 McLaren needed to be driven — on the brakes to give the front the load and bite it needs
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Sieper
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 am
Wasn't Jos Michael's teammate for like a year? Maybe he did in fact "bring up" Max in that "mold" -- as it were. Like sort of bring Max up in the image of Michael, in the hopes it would engender the same level of talent and/or success/results
Not for a full year, just a few races. Max has said (as does Sophie) that he also has a lot of is mother (also in the way of driving) in him.
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mendis
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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DChemTech wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:09 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 am
Wasn't Jos Michael's teammate for like a year? Maybe he did in fact "bring up" Max in that "mold" -- as it were. Like sort of bring Max up in the image of Michael, in the hopes it would engender the same level of talent and/or success/results
Yes, and where Michael could get WDC out of the car, Jos ended up with 2x 3th, a series of DNFs and what could have been a reasonably promising career in shatters. Considering how intensely Jos mentored his son, I would not at all be surprised if he used Michael as a template. Although there are alleged differences in style (alleged as in, I read about it but am terrible at spotting the nuances myself), e.g. that Max is a relatively early braker, while Michael braked late. Perhaps that's an era thing though - Michaels style was said to lead to greater wear and fuel consumption, which was less of an issue with infinite parts and refueling allowed.
I remember a statement from Max in the early days that, Jos always forced him to develop a mentality of being quick out of the box and not to slide in with lots of laps. That's a style where a driver simply had to go in hard from the word go and that required a quick sense to feel comfortable in whatever the equipment is and whatever the conditions are. It's something highly talented drivers possessed and so was Schumacher. Probably something Jos witnessed from close quarters being in the same team with Schumacher and being a friend too.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:13 am
Tbh let's face it, most people are not good judges of driving style from onboards. Unless you're Peter Windsor and apparently know each minute detail of every driver's style, even if what he's saying doesn't transpire on any onboard I've ever seen.

But those differences in execution, eg your braking example, could also be a manifestation of Jos bringing Max up to be as adaptable as Michael. Perhaps that is just what that adaptation has brought about. In Michael, in that era of flat out sprint racing with refueling and low deg tyres, in Max, what suits the current cars.
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