Driver styles/preferences

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JimClarkFan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by JimClarkFan » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:34 am

=P~
raymondu999 wrote:I'm not sure I agree with that either. If he induced throttle oversteer he would not have been as good in the V8 era. Vettel needs a lot of rear grip in order to get the car back in shape after he throws the nose at the apex
Your seem to be giving the impression that you couldn't break traction in the v8s.

I've seen plenty of short shifting by vettel when it suits him to dampen rear wheel spin.

He supposedly made up his time in the slow corners, corners which requires lower gears, and at times you can see and hear exactly what he is doing.

Having great rear stability doesn't mean you can't slide the rear. Rear stability just gives you confidence in how it reacts, stability is predictable, and predictability allows the driver to manipulate the rear more easily because it will respond how you want. That is how vettel got his time.

Having a stable rear, and inducing throttle oversteer are completely compatible - don't understand why people think otherwise.

That is what vettel's "problem" was this year, rear grip was removed, and vettel didn't have that feel anymore because less stability meant greater unpredictability and less ''tricks'' as he liked to call it. That neutered how he likes to drive, which was the throw the car at the corner early and use the throttle to bring the rear round.

I have posted videos of vettel pole laps in here before, with what I believe is happening. It seems obvious to me.

Yet I see many people talking about how his driving style is counter intuitive, or insinuating he was doing something special with the car... I haven't hid the fact that I think they are talking rubbish.
Last edited by JimClarkFan on Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TAG
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by TAG » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:30 am

The lifting and coasting, It's slower but it's obviously not just about that, the effects carry on and there is interleaving of that effect. Everything you need to know is right there.

1- He's lifting and coasting (additional harvesting)
2- He's then braking at particular points (which requires car set up)
3-He's managing to then do all of this while keeping a high enough speed on the exit to also gain a fuel saving according to the Sky article.

There's been a lot of abilities mentioned already about what he's doing that he's able to comfortably brake late handling instability that other drivers would be complaining about. I don't pretend to know exactly what/how he's doing it, but then again I'm not the F1 driver. The details are there and it's obviously working better for him than whatever Rosberg wound up doing, since not only was he more efficient with the fuel utilization, but ofter also managing to use less fuel while being faster on race pace.
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:03 pm

JCF - Let's agree to disagree.
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ringo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by ringo » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:56 am

Lifting and coasting is a technique used most effectively when you are leading from the front. If you are way ahead and you are saving the fuel and the engine you can lift and coast. It also is used as damage limitation if you are low on fuel. It's a very useful tool.
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gold333
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by gold333 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:15 am

Why this huge attention given to l&c? It's just a technique (used by drivers of all styles) to minimise fuel usage while doing the maximum damage limitation to laptime.

Another technique to save fuel would be not using full revs on upshifts, waiting longer in braking zones before downshifting (less over-run, engine braking), lowering limiter rpm in top, changing down in 2's on an H gate instead of going through the box, or ramming it into what you need.

It's just in the current era the l&c is the fuel conservation method least damaging to laptime... That's it imo.

Not a hugely impressive driving paradigm that has suddenly been broken, heralding the dawn of a new era in driving or some such lol.

What is much more interesting is the differences in driving style between champions when they are qualifying, i.e. Going as fast as they know HOW to (which is what driving an F1 car should be about if you ask me.)
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:29 pm

gold333 wrote:Why this huge attention given to l&c? It's just a technique (used by drivers of all styles) to minimise fuel usage while doing the maximum damage limitation to laptime.

Another technique to save fuel would be not using full revs on upshifts, waiting longer in braking zones before downshifting (less over-run, engine braking), lowering limiter rpm in top, changing down in 2's on an H gate instead of going through the box, or ramming it into what you need.

It's just in the current era the l&c is the fuel conservation method least damaging to laptime... That's it imo.

Not a hugely impressive driving paradigm that has suddenly been broken, heralding the dawn of a new era in driving or some such lol.

What is much more interesting is the differences in driving style between champions when they are qualifying, i.e. Going as fast as they know HOW to (which is what driving an F1 car should be about if you ask me.)
You can't qualify as fast as you can these days because you have to set up the car for heavy fuel too. It is a big compromise.
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gold333
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by gold333 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:34 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
gold333 wrote:Why this huge attention given to l&c? It's just a technique (used by drivers of all styles) to minimise fuel usage while doing the maximum damage limitation to laptime.

Another technique to save fuel would be not using full revs on upshifts, waiting longer in braking zones before downshifting (less over-run, engine braking), lowering limiter rpm in top, changing down in 2's on an H gate instead of going through the box, or ramming it into what you need.

It's just in the current era the l&c is the fuel conservation method least damaging to laptime... That's it imo.

Not a hugely impressive driving paradigm that has suddenly been broken, heralding the dawn of a new era in driving or some such lol.

What is much more interesting is the differences in driving style between champions when they are qualifying, i.e. Going as fast as they know HOW to (which is what driving an F1 car should be about if you ask me.)
You can't qualify as fast as you can these days because you have to set up the car for heavy fuel too. It is a big compromise.
In qualifying you drive a car as fast as you can irrespective of how it's been setup.

I see your point nevertheless. They should return to the 90's parc fermee.
F1 car width now 2.0m (same as 1993-1997). Lets go crazy and bring the 2.2m cars back (<1992).

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:51 pm

gold333 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
gold333 wrote:Why this huge attention given to l&c? It's just a technique (used by drivers of all styles) to minimise fuel usage while doing the maximum damage limitation to laptime.

Another technique to save fuel would be not using full revs on upshifts, waiting longer in braking zones before downshifting (less over-run, engine braking), lowering limiter rpm in top, changing down in 2's on an H gate instead of going through the box, or ramming it into what you need.

It's just in the current era the l&c is the fuel conservation method least damaging to laptime... That's it imo.

Not a hugely impressive driving paradigm that has suddenly been broken, heralding the dawn of a new era in driving or some such lol.

What is much more interesting is the differences in driving style between champions when they are qualifying, i.e. Going as fast as they know HOW to (which is what driving an F1 car should be about if you ask me.)
You can't qualify as fast as you can these days because you have to set up the car for heavy fuel too. It is a big compromise.
In qualifying you drive a car as fast as you can irrespective of how it's been setup.

I see your point nevertheless. They should return to the 90's parc fermee.
I didn't say drive as fast you can. I said qualify as fast as you can. Merc 2013.
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:32 am

PZ - to be honest I read gold333's point as being entirely "Drive as fast as you can"
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Godius
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by Godius » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:42 pm

Hi, I didn't want to start a new thread for this question I have so I will post it in here.

What was the cause of Mark Webber his demise of speed at RBR compared to the glorious consistency of speed that Vettel showcased in both their times at RBR? I can remember that they started the first couple of seasons of pretty evenly matched, there was a great intra-team battle going on.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by Tim.Wright » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:51 pm

I remember seeing an interview with Mark after his decision to retire and he admitted that he was losing some judgement (probably due to age). If I remember correct he said some of the high speed esses at a particular circuit were becoming difficult to hit correctly each lap and from this he realised that he wasn't able to maintain the same performance as he head when he was younger.

At the same time Seb was improving each year... So if they started off the same, it was only ever going to become more uneven as time went on.
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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by timbo » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:12 pm

Tim.Wright wrote:I remember seeing an interview with Mark after his decision to retire and he admitted that he was losing some judgement (probably due to age). If I remember correct he said some of the high speed esses at a particular circuit were becoming difficult to hit correctly each lap and from this he realised that he wasn't able to maintain the same performance as he head when he was younger.

At the same time Seb was improving each year... So if they started off the same, it was only ever going to become more uneven as time went on.
Well, that of course might be part of it, but also it was widely reported that compared to Webber, Vettel was able to extract more performance from blow diffuser. Remember 2012 -- before RBR adopted Coanda exhausts Vettel didn't have as much edge over Webber as he had in 2011, then after mid season upgrades Vettel did much better.

raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:16 am

IIRC - back when Webber was in his early F1 years, I would always marvel at his high speed commitment - whereas the slow stuff, I guess the field was somewhat levelled by ABS and TCS. As those were removed and slower corners became more prevalent - I think that hurt him. Look at his Monaco pole lap of 2010 - there were some corners where he just completely misjudged traction and had power oversteer.

I don't think the gap between VET and WEB changed much (except for 2012) - it was just that in 2009 and 2010 VET's inexperience and brashness masked that.
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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by timbo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:27 am

Good point, though
raymondu999 wrote:I guess the field was somewhat levelled by ABS and TCS.
except for Williams in 1993 I there wasn't ever ABS in F1.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:28 am

The McLaren had it too I think. Certainly Senna was never that bothered about his Donington win because he stated that the electronics helped so much it wasn't really that special. I think he's the only one to have held that view however! :shock:
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