Flexible wings 2011

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Post

feynman wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:...Measuring on the track is practically impossible...
Unless the FIA stipulates that wings have laser range-finder sensors fitted flush to bottom surface, one in middle, one at each end plate. Their position and calibration checked by scrutineers no longer employed ineffectually lifting heavy weights onto wings and splitters.
They are cheap and tiny, their output a continuous measure of wing height above the track surface fed via SECU and transmitted with the rest of the telemetry stream.

Specify any allowed flex/dip, tolerances, monitor rolling average to mitigate going over kerbs. Whole solution probably works out cheaper than the airfreight costs for increasingly complex and apparently pointless rigs and jigs.
This also wont work. The regulation does not stipulate any restrictions of the wing height from the ground. Only the reference plane under the car. There is no simple method to measure this accurately without enforcing a massive amount of hardware for the sole purpose of measuring the wing.

Anyway, performing the measurement on a moving car is a bad idea. The data will have to be heavily post processed due to noise in the measurements that it no longer remains an objevtive measure. Two drivers in an identical car will return different reults because of differences in their driving style. This is hardly an objective measurement so it cant be considered.
Diesel wrote: It's relatively straight forward to solve actually, only for next season. Standardised front wing components, much like the central section, only the entire first element. The FIA then control how rigid it's going to be.
:roll: Talk about selective reading. I said the measuring is not straight forward to solve. Nothing to do with the overall problem of the flexing wing

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

painkiller
1
Joined: 30 May 2010, 16:43

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Post

I dont think the nose is going down. when you look at this comparisson i made u see the angel of the wing is changing. Its going down on the outsides. its from the pole lap of Vettel today. one sec between the pics. one on full speed the other at full breaking.

Rightcklick the images and say open image to see it in full resolution!!

Image

Image

feynman
3
Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 20:36

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Post

Tim.Wright wrote:This also wont work.
The last time I mentioned this suggestion, about a year ago when we all first went through this particular wing pantomime, I also included two sensors front and back of floor to allow attitude to be measured, correlate reference plane to wing, and any other car dynamics or heights you may be interested in. (Self lifting splitters especially, allowing cars to nod their heads)
no longer remains an objevtive measure
It is clearly the very definition of objective, it is a number. You set a limit, if that limit is breached on-track it shows up in red.
They put hard limits on number of engine cylinders, you put numeric limits on time to cross timing loops in pit-lanes, you put numbers on minimum radius for bodywork curves. No-one starts getting all relativistic about these proscribed objective limits.

The cars are currently alive with sensors, the teams bring racks of servers to store the data generated, a few extra would not be any problem ... in this day and age, to have scrutineers squinting at wooden planks and blowing sawdust to check ride height seems positively archaic.

Sensors are cheap, the hardware is minimal and industry standardized, bandwidth and storage are plentiful ... or instead we could all just stand about looking silly as clumsily ineffectual big lumps of metal are dragged about scrutineering bays ... and cheeky end-fences continue to stubbornly drag across racetrack tarmac.

painkiller
1
Joined: 30 May 2010, 16:43

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

Rightcklick the images and say open image to see it in full resolution!!

I think they manage it with the force from the front in combination with the downforce. So they pass the tests. Great engineering art!!!

Image

Image

Caerdroia
6
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 22:15

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Post

painkiller wrote:I dont think the nose is going down. when you look at this comparisson i made u see the angel of the wing is changing. Its going down on the outsides. its from the pole lap of Vettel today. one sec between the pics. one on full speed the other at full breaking.
On the first picture, the top red line is lined up with the camera which is mounted on the nose. From that you can tell the nose is flexing downwards aswell.

marekk
2
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

shelly wrote:Like many, I think that if a team builds a front wing that obeys to rules and yet flexes on track they are showing that they have better engineering skills in designing and building front wings.

It is up to other teams to up their game in that area.
Don't think so. Even if we all agree, that not all FIA rules are mind blowing (to say the least), some of them do have reason - and it's the safety of drivers and spectators.

Hight of FW over reference plane and it's stifness are in direct relation to cornering speeds and (as seen in Spa last year) balance of the car.

What will be the excuse, if one of those cars gets FW ripped of at +300 kmh on the end of the straight, because of leading edge almost touching the ground and slightly bumpy tarmac or to much curbs ?

What realy wondering me, is FIA's indolence to make rules work. If not able to do real tests, just add 2 peaces of wood under FW's endplates :)

copperkipper1
1
Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 19:32

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

Redbull wing flexes under lower speeds unlike McLaren's which needs extra work.

Clearly a cleverly designed wing from redbull which enables it to get through scrutineering.

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

I have brought this from the Mclaren thread...
feynman wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:This also wont work.
The last time I mentioned this suggestion, about a year ago when we all first went through this particular wing pantomime, I also included two sensors front and back of floor to allow attitude to be measured, correlate reference plane to wing, and any other car dynamics or heights you may be interested in. (Self lifting splitters especially, allowing cars to nod their heads).
If you think you can acheive 0.1mm accuracy on a moving, vibrating rig in an uncontrolled environment wrt to temperature and humidity then you have another thing coming. Like I said, it simply wont be accurate.
feynman wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:no longer remains an objevtive measure
It is clearly the very definition of objective, it is a number. You set a limit, if that limit is breached on-track it shows up in red.
They put hard limits on number of engine cylinders, you put numeric limits on time to cross timing loops in pit-lanes, you put numbers on minimum radius for bodywork curves. No-one starts getting all relativistic about these proscribed objective limits.
You can measure number of cylinders and bodywork radiuses in a controlled environment, so your measurement is close to 100% objective. The wing level you can't, for the reasons I have just described.

I have done measurements with a laser tracker which is a tall as me, weights over 100kg, requires an hour to warm the lasers up and must be in a climate controlled room to get the accuracy. You are dreaming if you think you can measure dimensionality accurately on the track.

Even if the sensor is 100% accurate, the noise introduced by running over curbs, track debris, vibrations etc will require significant post processing to take out. This introduces a huge amount of uncertainty into the measurement which makes it completely useless.

The load test is not perfect, but its simple and completely objective.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

marekk wrote: What realy wondering me, is FIA's indolence to make rules work. If not able to do real tests, just add 2 peaces of wood under FW's endplates :)
Something like this is what is required. Or to extend the plank/reference plane to the full length of the car. It doesnt make sense to have your measurement datum ending 3/4 along the length of the vehicle.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

FemiA
0
Joined: 12 Jan 2011, 15:11

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Post

painkiller wrote:I dont think the nose is going down. when you look at this comparisson i made u see the angel of the wing is changing. Its going down on the outsides. its from the pole lap of Vettel today. one sec between the pics. one on full speed the other at full breaking.

Rightcklick the images and say open image to see it in full resolution!!

Image

Image
To me is looks like the car itself is rising (when one looks at the drivers head) in unison with the FW end plates going downward.

bot6
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2011, 19:30

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

There are plenty of other solutions for the load test. One would be to load the wing in three places along its chord instead of just one at the moment, which would make it impossible to just place the pivot point of the wing flexing where the test load is.

That would be a first step.

Another solution would be to reverse engineer the wing shape from photographs on track. The technology exists, and is precise to around 1mm, which would be enough in this case.

allstaruk08
2
Joined: 21 Jan 2009, 20:47

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

Post

FemiA wrote:
painkiller wrote:I dont think the nose is going down. when you look at this comparisson i made u see the angel of the wing is changing. Its going down on the outsides. its from the pole lap of Vettel today. one sec between the pics. one on full speed the other at full breaking.

Rightcklick the images and say open image to see it in full resolution!!

Image

Image
To me is looks like the car itself is rising (when one looks at the drivers head) in unison with the FW end plates going downward.

i think hes leaning his head to go into the turn so his head is lower. the wing defo moves no other part of the car moves, use your cursor point as a reference on any part of the car and you'll see its just the wing (and the driver lol) that moves

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

bot6 wrote:There are plenty of other solutions for the load test. One would be to load the wing in three places along its chord instead of just one at the moment, which would make it impossible to just place the pivot point of the wing flexing where the test load is.
Well, with all due respect I think it's not a question of more points.

I think that now the problem is this: the FIA test assumes that the wing flexes proportional to load.

I am no mechanic but I know my structures.

I can give you three solutions (at least) to give you a flexing that is not proportional to load once you pass a certain threshold. This wing is not elastic.

One is what I would call the silly putty solution. You know, silly putty is not elastic nor plastic either, but thixotropic, as asphalt is: the deflection depends on the speed of the loading, like ketchup, that doesn't move until you hit it hard. If you make a ball with silly putty, you can make it rebound from the floor if thrown against it (with a quick load) but it also will stretch like bubble gum if you pull it with a sustained load, while it "melts" under its own weight if you leave it on a table.

Wonderful substance silly putty is and all structural engineers can learn a lot by buying a bit and actually watch it at work... believe it or not, the textbooks about elasticity are kind of naive, because all materials have a bit of that, but none is as instructive as this unnoticed material.

That's the reason why at toll booths the road is made of concrete, even if the rest of the road is made of asphalt: when the heavy trucks stop, they damage more the asphalt, because the asphalt creeps under a sustained load, even if larger impact loads do not affect it. Actually, this is the opposite of ketchup, but you get the point. So, parking lots for heavy trucks and every surface where the trucks will be stationary needs a thicker asphalt layer or a more rigid one. The Shell design book for asphalt explains it very well.

Second would be a simple plastic solution, which would be harder to implement, if possible at all, because you couldn't recover easily from deflection, which would be more or less permanent, so you should evaluate how much the "final creep" would be.

Third would be to use a two or three point compensated hinge, like the old submarine hatches that you could move with one hand (a spring is giving you a compensation of turning moment, if you get my drift). Piccard explains it very well in his book about the batyscaphe he built in the 1950's, when he shows how he built the main hatch, able to resist 11.000 meters of water pressure, but that you can move easily in case you really feel an urge to exit the batysphere.

This is the way some kitchen doors work (you know, those doors in kitchens that resist you pushing them until a certain point is reached and then you "overcome" the spring, then they move away and "cross" toward the other side of the entrance, where the spring kicks in again, they are used in every restaurant kitchen).

Actually, I would go for number three, or a combination of number one and three. They would be undetectable, even if you use a dozen points.

I bet a rum bottle on this happening.

So, I guess they have now a new field of research. More money down the drain. Sheesh.

The simple solution from the point of view of stewards, as all solutions that are simple are, is not to use an indirect method of measurement, but something that measures directly the outcome. I would suggest something like the plank, that has worked very well for many years to control body clearances.

You cannot beat the designers, if they are using these solutions (and I believe they are clearly using them) by changing the simple test FIA uses nowadays.

I hope this is clear. I would love to hear criticisms of this possibility. Heck, if they are not using this system, they should.

I would, and if they are not using it, then they have it here.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 26 Mar 2011, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro

marekk
2
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

Of course the simplest solution to the problem is alerady known to older of us:

Image

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Flexible wings 2011

Post

Yeah, marekk, that's what I said. A plank in the corners. As they say down here, "más sabe el Diablo por viejo que por Diablo" (something like "the Devil knows more because he is old than what he knows by being the Devil"). ;)
Ciro

Post Reply