Overtaking in F1 and what it should not be

[HampusA]

When the cars a designed the way they are there is no other way..

True, the only way to generate good racing is remove the heavy reliance on the front wing. In fact, remove wings all together, bring back ground affect tuned to leave as little turbulent air as possible. DRS should only be a temporary fix. And I say let the driver in front use it.

I think the DRS advantage only aplified the issue in Turkey, I dont expect there to be that bigger advantage for the rest of the season. That is if the FIA shorted the DRS zones.

To bad they have said no to ground effects..
In some sense i can agree because FIA would not have any control over it or know just how much downforce the cars would create.

But on the other hand FIA could design a floor with a fan that all the teams have to use and only letting them focus on the rest.

Either way, we need to move away from this much aero or come up with a solution that does not disturb the airflow so much behind the car.

[Pandamasque]

Once again it was PAINFULLY clear that DRS robbed us of some good racing. The drivers on older tyres were defenceless and didn't even dare to move over on the straight before T12 to try and defend the position. Pirelli created the speed differentials necessary for overtaking, now let them race FFS!
I want to see faster cars stuck behind slower cars for longer periods of time fighting to get by. As it is they can just wait till DRS zone and be on their way. That's bad for the spectacle from any point of view.

[archiebald]

I haven't read all this thread but for me the problem we have in F1 right now is those stupid Pirelli tyres. Following the Turkish race was almost incomprehensible with the excessive pitting.

KERS is good, it has a real world application and is already being used in road cars. It reduces fuel consumption while adding power. Drivers have the option of using it at various parts of the circuit where they think it will work for them meaning that every lap can be different. We saw Lewis doing this against Jenson in China. Only change I would like to see is more power available per lap.

DRS is good if implemented correctly. At China it was just about perfect, we saw just as many DRS invoked overtaking moves fail as we saw succeed. They got it wrong at Turkey, but the system can do what it was supposed to if implemented correctly. What it should be doing is putting drivers into an overtaking position either on the straight where it is installed or in the following 1 or 2 corners because they were able to close the gap.

Now to the tyres. Utter, utter crap!! Pirelli have produced tyres that deliberately fall apart after 100km. This totally destroys the racing in a number of ways.

• 1. We have the ridiculous situation as in Turkey where there were more than 80 pit stops. During the race it is almost impossible for the casual observer to look at the current positions and number of stops and have any clue as to how the race is progressing. We saw race positions compromised by wheel nuts getting stuck. People should not be winning races by doing 4 stops in a sub 2-hour race.

• 2. As per the famous phrase "falling off the cliff" the tyre performance falls away far too suddenly meaning that even the very smoothest drivers cannot eke their tyres out for an extra few laps by easing off slightly. Now it is all or nothing. We saw this happen to Lewis in Malaysia, Vettel in China and Button in Turkey. The performance drop should be gradual so that a driver can use his skills to better control how his tyres go off. As Webber said after China, his 18th to 3rd recovery was really a big con because most of the drivers he overtook were just sitting ducks. The tyres don't seem to react to driver style at all, they just fall apart after the 100km warranty whatever happens. It shouldn't be like that. We should be able to see a driver able to drop his lap times enough so that his tyres can last equal to 2 crazy stints and a pitstop.

• 3. We have more marbles than ever, everywhere except the racing line that drivers are becoming limited on their overtaking locations. On top of which several drivers have complained about the large projectiles flying around.

• 4. KERS and DRS are advanced technologies that work together to enhance the racing technique. The Pirelli tyres on the other hand, are manufactured as an artifical handicap that goes against the core principles of F1. They are destroying the racing spectacle and the pursuit of technology that enhances the racing. It would be like ensuring that the wings only last 25 laps before they drop off. It is ANTI-TECHNOLOGY.

• 5. One of the key advantages of going away from re-fuelling was that we previously had a race made up of a short series of sprints. Last year we had decent tyres and no refuelling and the season was excellent. Now, with these crappy Pirellis we are back to the same situation as before where races are being won and lost according to pit strategy rather than driving skills.

• 6. When Mr. Super Smooth Jenson Button finishes two races in a row compaining about how his tyres fell off too quickly, you know that something just isn't right.

• 7. With 24 cars x 80 pit stops x 4 wheels we had 7,680 tyres (oops my mistake , see corrected figures in posts below) consumed during the race. Isn't that just a little ridiculous considering the supposed move that F1 is making towards greener technologies? Apart from the sheer volume of materials, the shipping alone puts a big dent in their carbon offsetting program. Anyone want to calculate how many 40ft containers are needed for that many tyres?

What we need to do with tyres is;

• a. Get rid of the rule that states both compounds must be used.

• b. Pirelli must supply 2 tyre compounds that the teams can freely choose to use for their best advantage

• c. The tyre compounds supplied must be dramatically different enough in their performance so that each has advantages and disadvantages in certain phases of the race. For example, teams might opt to use the harder compound at the start to tackle the fuel load, and switch to a softer compound as the load lightens

• d. The target should be that each team should be considering a 1 or 2 stop race strategy with super smooth drivers being able to consider a no-stopper.

• e. Get rid of the rule that states the top 10 cars must start on the qualifying time tyres, just that they must be consumed in the race.

END OF RANT!!

[Sebp]

archie, I agree with most of what you're saying. Although you got the math wrong in your hightened state of emotion. It should be 80 stops x 4 tyres + 24 cars x 4 tyres equals 344 tyres. That's still alot...

If it was up to me there would be a ban on pitstops all together (I hate pitstops, they're too artificial). Except for changing from slicks to inters or wets. So a driver would have to choose his compound before the race and make it last.

[bhall]

I don't remember 2005 - when tire changes weren't allowed - being a banner year in terms of racing. I think the reintroduction of such a ban would produce tires that are simply too durable to allow for any meaningful performance differential and, in concert with with the present lack of refueling, would make the DRS zones the sole areas where overtaking is possible. I can't think of anything more artificial than that. But such is life with a highly restricted formula that produces cars of similar performance.

Coincidentally, I think the tires this season have shown that perhaps we've been wrong to blame aerodynamics for the perceived lack of overtaking in years past. We're in the third season of an aerodynamic formula specifically designed to assist with overtaking, but nothing really changed until the introduction of this new rapidly degrading tire. That variable mechanical grip does more than a reduction of aerodynamics to facilitate overtaking should have been obvious in light of every wet race where the reduction of mechanical grip produced exciting results despite constant, unaffected aero.

So now we have a formula which produces hideous looking cars and DRS, each an attempt to solve a problem that never really existed, and overtaking has become the rule rather than the exception. I don't really see the fun in that.

[HampusA]

• 7. With 24 cars x 80 pit stops x 4 wheels we had 7,680 tyres consumed during the race.

Now that is hilarious.

[Richard]

Last year we had decent tyres and no refuelling and the season was excellent.

The racing was livened up by RB shooting themselves in the foot. Other than that it was follow my leader for 70 laps with precious little overtaking and no role for effective strategies.

[Pingguest]

About 340 sets of tyres consumed in one race. What about Formula 1 seeking for a 'green(er)' image?

[Richard]

archie, I agree with most of what you're saying. Although you got the math wrong in your hightened state of emotion. It should be 80 stops x 4 tyres + 24 cars x 4 tyres equals 344 tyres.

Wrong again!

80*4 = 320
24*4 = 96
Total = 416

Anyway, that's only the number of tyres used in for the race. They use less tyres this year over the weekend.

2011 - 11 sets per team = 1056 tyres (27% reduction on 2010)
2010 - 14 sets per team = 1344 tyres

Tyre allocation has been reduced for 2011, with 11 rather than 14 sets of dry-weather tyres available to each driver per race weekend.

Drivers will receive three sets (two prime, one option) to use in P1 and P2 and must return one set after each session. A further eight sets will then be at their disposal for the rest of the weekend, although one set of each specification must be handed back before qualifying.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... ions/8692/

... sorry to let facts get in the way of the rants!

... sorry x 2 for the absence of big bold fonts in this post

[Mr Alcatraz]

So now we have a formula which produces hideous looking cars and DRS, each an attempt to solve a problem that never really existed, and overtaking has become the rule rather than the exception. I don't really see the fun in that.

I wonder how Montoya would have taken to this current formula (-25 lb's)?

[bhall]

Everyone is Montoya with the current formula.

[Sebp]

archie, I agree with most of what you're saying. Although you got the math wrong in your hightened state of emotion. It should be 80 stops x 4 tyres + 24 cars x 4 tyres equals 344 tyres.

Wrong again!

80*4 = 320
24*4 = 96
Total = 416

oops

[Mr Alcatraz]

Everyone is Montoya with the current formula.

That's funny bro!

[archiebald]

Okay, okay, I was ranting so much I go a slight maths error.

But let's not get distracted by a number. The principle is the tyres are a joke.

The fact is that everything about Formula 1 is supposed to revolve around engineering excellence. In this respect KERS, engines, aerodynamics, chassis, and drivers are all refined and pushed to their limits in terms of being the best. Designers spend millions trying to develop elegant solutions to improve a couple of tenths per lap.

Then someone comes along and says, "Now you have to race on recycled bubblegum tyres"

Its like re-designing Concorde and putting propellors on it.

And in any case I like BIG BOLD LETTERS!!!

And back to reality...

We saw Webber charge from 18th to 3rd on completely fresh rubber in China. We saw Kobayashi go from 24th to 10th in Turkey for much the same reason (bearing in mind I think he also picked up a puncture as well so he might have finished higher).
So it would seem to be a reasonable strategy to avoid going into Q3 altogether. One of the top teams, with two extra sets of brand new tyres could almost be certain of at least a podium finish by deliberately targetting 11th or 12th on the grid. You get extra rubber to play with and a free hand on compound strategy. You could also benefit from less stress and wear on engines and gearboxes. May be no advantage now, but come the end of the season, that might be the difference between a good haul of points versus a DNF.

But, that is not proper racing, it is artificial.

[beelsebob]

Okay, okay, I was ranting so much I go a slight maths error.

But let's not get distracted by a number. The principle is the tyres are a joke.

The fact is that everything about Formula 1 is supposed to revolve around engineering excellence. In this respect KERS, engines, aerodynamics, chassis, and drivers are all refined and pushed to their limits in terms of being the best. Designers spend millions trying to develop elegant solutions to improve a couple of tenths per lap.

Then someone comes along and says, "Now you have to race on recycled bubblegum tyres"

Its like re-designing Concorde and putting propellors on it.

And in any case I like BIG BOLD LETTERS!!!

Personally, I hate the idea that nothing can be cutting edge unless it's also the absolute best possible thing we could produce. As far as I'm concerned, making a car that not only is ludicrously fast, able to corner at 5g, but also able to do so on recycled bubblegum makes the feat all the more impressive.

This is the same reason I support the I4 engine proposal – it's oh so much more technelogically amazing if you can get an I4 to produce 700bhp.