Overtaking in F1 and what it should not be

[archiebald]

There is a point where making everything cuting edge becomes too expensive, hence the regulations.

Developing any part of the car to be as good and fast as possible within a budget limit is an area that I don't have a problem with. Real life engineering is always about making the best you can within budgetary limitations. I work in a machinery production company and we see this every day. I don't have a problem with the new engine proposals because it is a refinement of technology. With more bhp per liter the engineering challenges go up.

What annoys me about the Pirelli tyres is that Pirelli probably spent more R&D money on deliberately making them fall apart. That is so wrong - it has no place in F1.

Would be nice if Pirelli's road tyre market share dropped due to their bad performance in F1. Might be a wake up call for them.

[Caito]

Bubblegum tires are the same for all.

And no, you probably won't reject Q3. What do you prefer, 11th with 0laps option tires. Or 1st with one lap(one full speed, but there's in and out lap) used option tires.

I bet you can't go from 11th to 1st in 3 laps, unless you have extreme luck.


First because there wasn't overtaking. Now because there's too much?

[archiebald]

Bubblegum tyres are the same for all.

And no, you probably won't reject Q3. What do you prefer, 11th with 0laps option tires. Or 1st with one lap(one full speed, but there's in and out lap) used option tires.

I bet you can't go from 11th to 1st in 3 laps, unless you have extreme luck.


First because there wasn't overtaking. Now because there's too much?

I never said I had a problem with overtaking on the track.

What I don't like is 4 x 15 lap sprints and overtaking in the pits.

Bring back Bridgestone - their tyres with KERS and DRS would give a good balance to the racing.

[bhall]

I don't know how you made it this long if you don't like overtaking from pitstops.

[archiebald]

I don't know how you made it this long if you don't like overtaking from pitstops.

I was getting very optimistic when re-fuelling was banned. Last season was excellent with 1 and 2 stop races.

Now with 4-stoppers being the winning strategy due to the crappy tyres, the situation has just gone back to (and worse than) where we were with re-fuelling.

[bhall]

Even though I don't agree with you, I see where you're coming from. I just don't mind pitstops or the resulting strategies. In fact, one of the - and I'm struggling for the appropriate adjective - "coolest" (?) races I ever saw was the 2004 French Grand Prix where Schumacher made a 4-stop strategy work to perfection.

I wouldn't worry too much, though. Sauber have shown us that it is possible to run a race on Pirellis with fewer than 4 stops. I suspect every team will make similar strides sooner rather than later. (And remember, Pirelli were asked to produce tires with these characteristics.)

In my eyes, at least the tires are equal for all competitors, and that beats the hell out the farce that is DRS. However, I think I've railed against that enough.

For now, enjoy the product of people who obviously thought "Driven" was both a compelling and realistic depiction of open-wheeled racing. Where art thou, Jimmy Bly?

[archiebald]

What was wrong with DRS in China and Malaysia?

I agree that the setup was wrong in Turkey but in the previous two races, it enabled following cars to get on the tail of a car in front and attempt an overtake which would not have been possible. If it is implemented correctly, it should make the drivers work for position. How often have we heard in previous years, "I closed the gap within 0.5 second and couldn't make an overtake due to turbulent air" (which was another reason why drivers would wait for the leading car to pit before attempting a move).

With DRS setup correctly we are getting much closer racing throughout entire laps. Following drivers now have a real incentive to keep the pressure on because the know they have some possibility to overtake. It doesn't just affect the DRS zone, we are starting to see overtakes one, two or three corners later because the following car could get itself into a better position. There have been overtakes this year where we have not seen them before.

Now, if you have two drivers on similar tyre life, they are going to be playing cat and mouse with each other. We have seen this several times already. The only thing that lets the whole system down is that one of the driver's tyres suddenly go off and the battle is instantly gone.

I want to see drivers having at each other lap after lap.

[bhall]

I'll just refer you to posts I've made earlier in this thread regarding DRS. I'm not going down that road again, as I have a nasty tendency to regard those with opposing viewpoints as a personal affront to my magisterial intellect.

I wear big hats.

Cheers.

[Richard]

I never said I had a problem with overtaking on the track.

What I don't like is 4 x 15 lap sprints and overtaking in the pits.

Bring back Bridgestone - their tyres with KERS and DRS would give a good balance to the racing.

eh? I'm not sure what races you were watching over the last few years, but the only overtaking was in the pits.

[archiebald]

I never said I had a problem with overtaking on the track.

What I don't like is 4 x 15 lap sprints and overtaking in the pits.

Bring back Bridgestone - their tyres with KERS and DRS would give a good balance to the racing.

eh? I'm not sure what races you were watching over the last few years, but the only overtaking was in the pits.

Not at all. True there was less overtaking on track but when Hamilton arrived on the scene a breath of fresh air wafted into the sport.

And, even without the technical changes we also have the delightful Kamui Kobayashi to thank for a great deal of entertainment.

If we could only have 22 others with the mindset of these two then all the artifical aids would be unnecessary.

Some people are raving about the 2011 season already but I don't get it. In 2010 we already had an emergence of more overtaking than ever with the added bonus that overtaking was never guaranteed. There were some brlliant duels and defensive driving (as per Petrov on Alonso in the final round) was just as exciting as any overtake. This came about due to a combination of two factors, 1. the re-fuelling ban, and 2. tyres that lasted a decent distance and fell off gradually. As a result the pit-stops were reduced from previous seasons and overtaking took place on the track.

Now, the 2011 regs have swung the pendulum too far the other way. The cars spend too much time in the pits (places change without overtaking) and the drop off in the tyres is so extreme that the drivers are forced to make 3~4 stops(with 4 looking like the optimum at the moment - anyone going to try 5?).

That is why I maintain that the best balance would be this years KERS, DRS and aero rules with Bridgestone type tyres instead of the horrible current Pirellis.

I accept that Pirelli are delivering what was requested but it doesn't change the fact that the current tyre specs are a disaster for the sport right now.

[HampusA]

Do you have any statistics on overtaking on track vs in pits?

[dribbler]

In fact, one of the - and I'm struggling for the appropriate adjective - "coolest" (?) races I ever saw was the 2004 French Grand Prix where Schumacher made a 4-stop strategy work to perfection.

Indeed. Although I think Hungary '98 was more significant. It shook McLaren to the core. Quite brilliant.

[bhall]

Sadly, that predates my involvement with F1 - I think I was drunk that year. But, even watching a foreign language review of that race on YouTube makes me long for the days of all-out strategic wars with both fuel and tire strategy involved. I like the concept of completing 300 km as fast as possible and by any means necessary, if that means three stops or even no stops.

That sporting ethos is what I think Formula 1 is all about.

[Sebp]

Why do we need tyre stops anyway? Before pitstops became the norm in the 80s, tyres always had to last the the whole distance. If they didn't the race was usually lost. And you can't argue that racing then was at least as exciting (deliberate little understatement there) as today.

[i70q7m7ghw]

But it's well regarded that Formula 1 was possibly at it's best in the 80s...