2023 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, Sep 15 -17

[Astro85]

It’s fairly obvious that those laps were outliers in Hamilton’s stint, and the first lap being heavily influenced by passing Lerlerc. Him being back to his normal stint pace a lap or so clearly shows he still had loads of pace over George, which I know is impossible for you to admit.

Outliers still have an impact, he also only lapped just over a tenth faster on lap 57, another impactful lap when you're trying to make a pass.

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

[PikeStance]

Feels like Lando did get lucky with Ham giving the place back, he was in control and past Lando.

Russell ran him off the road so he accelerated away and round the bollard, but was not carrying too much speed in the corner for the Norris overtake.

LH never planned to make corner... Once a cheater always a cheater...

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

This was a silly analysis. He was "under control" because he backed out of the maneuver. If he tried to brake and turn he would have lost control. This is why he went off track. He was incredibly ambitious of Hamilton to think he could throw himself into the curve and expect other drivers to back off or move out of his way. Anyway, he carried too much speed to complete the double pass without illegally leaving the track to do so, thus the reason why he gave up the positions. It really is that simple.

[DDopey]

He intended to go for the escape. He knew if he would brake late he would be in that position. George just kept his line which he is allowed to, he did not push anyone. It is underestimating the abilities of Lewis if you think he did not do that on purpose. Only thing is, he did not fool the stewards.

[dans79]

Outliers still have an impact, he also only lapped just over a tenth faster on lap 57, another impactful lap when you're trying to make a pass.

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

That is likely, but several other scenarios are also possible. for example:

• charging up the pack some so you have more power to use if an overtake presents itself.
• trying to manage when you arrive on some ones gearbox. id does you know benefit to sit on some ones gearbox for a 1/4th to 1/2 a lap if it's in an area where passing really isn't possible.

it could be 1 reason or a combination of multiple!

[astralx]

Outliers still have an impact, he also only lapped just over a tenth faster on lap 57, another impactful lap when you're trying to make a pass.

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

[astralx]

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

That is likely, but several other scenarios are also possible. for example:

• charging up the pack some so you have more power to use if an overtake presents itself.
• trying to manage when you arrive on some ones gearbox. id does you know benefit to sit on some ones gearbox for a 1/4th to 1/2 a lap if it's in an area where passing really isn't possible.

it could be 1 reason or a combination of multiple!

yes

[Astro85]

those slower laps were tyremanagment...not to cook tyres like Russell did....

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

Who said otherwise, just didn't have enough to make the pass and that's really all that matters. Russell gifted him the podium in the end but his poor qualifying cost him a shot at the win.

[mwillems]

LH never planned to make corner... Once a cheater always a cheater...

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

This was a silly analysis. He was "under control" because he backed out of the maneuver. If he tried to brake and turn he would have lost control. This is why he went off track. He was incredibly ambitious of Hamilton to think he could throw himself into the curve and expect other drivers to back off or move out of his way. Anyway, he carried too much speed to complete the double pass without illegally leaving the track to do so, thus the reason why he gave up the positions. It really is that simple.

I think you can see that he was under control because he made the corner and was almost pointing to the next apex before darting off track and accelerating, all without locking or going off track. You can also see he has plenty of turn on the wheel left.

How is it that you think he would lose control, why does he need to brake any more? Other tan to avoid a car that is running him off the track?

I obviously can't see it, but doesn't mean it isn't there, but what is it in the video that shows he couldn't make the turn?

As for expecting people to give space, that's the rules, he had the car in the right place according to the regs that Russell should give space.

[SmallSoldier]

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

Lewis did pass Lando cleanly, but by going off track he didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate a defense of the position, so had to give the position back. Fortunate yes, but no question in my mind it was correct.

That's an interesting one. The FIA Driver Standards Guideline doesn't mention it though, just mentions you have to demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines. Being capable is key. Here he did demonstrate that, but was run off the road.

Do you have links to this rule?

Not to be devils advocate… But, he didn’t demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines, he never did… Whether it was because Russell “closed the door” or because he simply when in too hot, knowing he could bail out, the reality is that he never made the corner.

Lando mentioned on the radio if I’m not wrong: He broke way too late, committed to it (the run off area)… Of course there will always be that bit were the drivers will say things on the radio to trigger a review / penalty, but there is also the fact that they know where the braking points and what is and isn’t possible

[astralx]

That's fair enough, so, he had to cool his tyres and couldn't continue with that relentless pace for a couple of laps.

yes, but overall his last stint was much better then Russells ,

Who said otherwise, just didn't have enough to make the pass and that's really all that matters. Russell gifted him the podium in the end but his poor qualifying cost him a shot at the win.

yes, he didnt had enough, thats true, to pass you need on this track much bigger delta( 1,5s or even more) or a gift....

[the EDGE]

Well he clearly did make it as demonstrated by the three videos But even so, your discussing the Russell pass

He's under control made the turn, no lockup, pass on Lando was complete. The he is attacking Russell, had no space and he needed to give the place to Russell.



Sometimes we need to put bias aside and admit we got lucky cos we sure as hell bitch when it goes the other way!

This was a silly analysis. He was "under control" because he backed out of the maneuver. If he tried to brake and turn he would have lost control. This is why he went off track. He was incredibly ambitious of Hamilton to think he could throw himself into the curve and expect other drivers to back off or move out of his way. Anyway, he carried too much speed to complete the double pass without illegally leaving the track to do so, thus the reason why he gave up the positions. It really is that simple.

I think you can see that he was under control because he made the corner and was almost pointing to the next apex before darting off track and accelerating, all without locking or going off track. You can also see he has plenty of turn on the wheel left.

How is it that you think he would lose control, why does he need to brake any more? Other tan to avoid a car that is running him off the track?

I obviously can't see it, but doesn't mean it isn't there, but what is it in the video that shows he couldn't make the turn?

EVERYONE ELSE made it through that corner without going off-track

In this instance, Lewis licked-it & sent-it, knowing full well he could go off, denying Lando the chance to fight for position, so although the move on Lando was made, Lewis gained an advantage nonetheless, and for that reason he was told to give the place back

[mwillems]

Lewis did pass Lando cleanly, but by going off track he didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate a defense of the position, so had to give the position back. Fortunate yes, but no question in my mind it was correct.

That's an interesting one. The FIA Driver Standards Guideline doesn't mention it though, just mentions you have to demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines. Being capable is key. Here he did demonstrate that, but was run off the road.

Do you have links to this rule?

Not to be devils advocate… But, he didn’t demonstrate being capable of making the corner in the white lines, he never did… Whether it was because Russell “closed the door” or because he simply when in too hot, knowing he could bail out, the reality is that he never made the corner.

Lando mentioned on the radio if I’m not wrong: He broke way too late, committed to it (the run off area)… Of course there will always be that bit were the drivers will say things on the radio to trigger a review / penalty, but there is also the fact that they know where the braking points and what is and isn’t possible

So by turning the car to the next apex, no slide and no loss of control doesn't demonstrate the pass on Lando was complete? I'd get it if he had issues entering the turn or getting his exit lined up, because that would demonstrate he was carrying too much speed.

But if you can do all of those things, doesn't that demonstrate he entered the corner in a manner in which he was able to complete it except for the defence of the next driver along?

Regarding the white lines, it says that leaving them you only have to give back the advantage gained. So I guess what I can't get my head around is how if you can enter a corner, pass the apex and point to the next one, can it be classed as getting an advantage on a pass prior to the corner by carrying too much speed. By Russell I can get it, it was a hard fight and Russell used his elbows, but I'm sure sure how that becomes a determining factor in a move that the car was able to do and make the corner apex etc without slide or locking etc etc

[mwillems]

This was a silly analysis. He was "under control" because he backed out of the maneuver. If he tried to brake and turn he would have lost control. This is why he went off track. He was incredibly ambitious of Hamilton to think he could throw himself into the curve and expect other drivers to back off or move out of his way. Anyway, he carried too much speed to complete the double pass without illegally leaving the track to do so, thus the reason why he gave up the positions. It really is that simple.

I think you can see that he was under control because he made the corner and was almost pointing to the next apex before darting off track and accelerating, all without locking or going off track. You can also see he has plenty of turn on the wheel left.

How is it that you think he would lose control, why does he need to brake any more? Other tan to avoid a car that is running him off the track?

I obviously can't see it, but doesn't mean it isn't there, but what is it in the video that shows he couldn't make the turn?

EVERYONE ELSE made it through that corner without going off-track

In this instance, Lewis licked-it & sent-it, knowing full well he could go off, denying Lando the chance to fight for position, so although the move on Lando was made, Lewis gained an advantage nonetheless, and for that reason he was told to give the place back

But this is situation specific, everyone else wasn't pushed off track in defence of a potential overtake.

Again, the lick and sent I don't get simply because he was fine for the corner but for another driver taking his space. I get that for Russell, but not sure how it impacts the Norris manouver.

So I guess I'm interested in what separates the moves. For me I have an idea, but if it isn't turning in and pointing at the next corner then what is it? If you are able to start your exit for the corner, how are you sending it in too fast. I'm probably being dim but I just can't see it!

[the EDGE]

I think you can see that he was under control because he made the corner and was almost pointing to the next apex before darting off track and accelerating, all without locking or going off track. You can also see he has plenty of turn on the wheel left.

How is it that you think he would lose control, why does he need to brake any more? Other tan to avoid a car that is running him off the track?

I obviously can't see it, but doesn't mean it isn't there, but what is it in the video that shows he couldn't make the turn?

EVERYONE ELSE made it through that corner without going off-track

In this instance, Lewis licked-it & sent-it, knowing full well he could go off, denying Lando the chance to fight for position, so although the move on Lando was made, Lewis gained an advantage nonetheless, and for that reason he was told to give the place back

But this is situation specific, everyone else wasn't pushed off track in defence of a potential overtake.

Correct… because everyone else made sure they wasn’t in that position, by slowing down and falling-in behind the car in front, Lewis knew Russell would force him wide and knew he could go off-track, he did so, he gained an advantage on Lando by doing so, he had to give the place back

Had he of slowed and fell in behind Russell, Lando would have had the chance to fight for the position

[mwillems]

EVERYONE ELSE made it through that corner without going off-track

In this instance, Lewis licked-it & sent-it, knowing full well he could go off, denying Lando the chance to fight for position, so although the move on Lando was made, Lewis gained an advantage nonetheless, and for that reason he was told to give the place back

But this is situation specific, everyone else wasn't pushed off track in defence of a potential overtake.

Correct… because everyone else made sure they wasn’t in that position, by slowing down and falling-in behind the car in front, Lewis knew Russell would force him wide and knew he could go off-track, he did so, he gained an advantage on Lando by doing so, he had to give the place back

Had he of slowed and fell in behind Russell, Lando would have had the chance to fight for the position

But by the rules Russel should give him a cars width, no?