Williams/Virgin behind EBD off throttle ban.

[Hangaku]

Because they were raised doing the heel toe in lower and carting series.

[alelanza]

I have no idea if it's active but I'd like to think that it's just a constant flow that in itself balances the car by producing a more constant level of rear downforce. If it were actually active then that would be wrong on a whole new level.

But even in that constant flow guise it is still adjusting the cars throttle independently of driver input so as to balance the car, something that doesn't sit well with me.

OK, so i think we agree in how we think it works. Basically a constant aid based on driver input (lifting off). What's not clear to me, is how is this any different from say the diff settings, and consider they have one for corner entry, mid corner, and corner exit. Same goes for engine braking, it's a fixed setting that the driver can choose that will help him. Race start engine mappings? similar thing to me. DRS opened? another thing they can turn to for help, same with KERS. So from a driver's ability point of view i don't see how we can draw the line and say off throttle EBD should be banned as it's an aid. And i'm pretty clear cut when it comes to not wanting active susp, ABS, TC, etc. to be on cars.

...The drivers have the option, however unattractive it is, of using the clutch to (partially) disconnect the engine from the wheels which would allow them to use the throttle under braking and turn-in without the usual side effect of accelerating the rotation of the rear wheels...

I think those are very different things, i even doubt an F1 gbox could be driven like that, they aren't meant to be run in neutral and then have the driver engage whenever he wants, there's a computer that controls that and the way they've been developed i'm thinking they would break before one lap is done. The problem in concept comes from thinking the ECU is just revving up the engine to blow gases while setting the thing in neutral, like you would on a manual car to match revs while down shifting. But in reality what the ECU is doing is opening the throttle and retarding the ignition so that instead of converting the ignited gases into torque, they're used to 'blow' the diffuser while providing much less torque than they would. So, based on this, given a driver has no way of retarding ignition other than through engine mappings, i don't see how anyone could expect a driver to replicate this process.

Some use the heel toe method. Not all drivers use left foot brake. Use the heel for the brake and keep the gas pedal down with the toe.

Because they were raised doing the heel toe in lower and carting series.

Really, which drivers are those? provide sources. Last time i checked Rubens was the last one to right foot brake and that changed while at Ferrari.
BTW, for me to heel and toe in a kart i'd have to use clown shoes and destroy the steering column. What karts do you race?
Lastly, just noticed you said brake with the heel, keep the gas down with the toe. To me it's more brake with toe, hit gas with heel/right side of the foot.

[eyalynf1]

Jenson Button also right foot brakes...

[Rob01]

alelanza... you are wrong on some many fronts I don't even know where to begin. You talk of keeping engine revs up. That is NOT an issue with an F1 car as it nearly runs at top rpm at ALL times. You are kidding yourself with throwing down a heel and catching the brake with the toe. Go try it in your hoopty and see what happens. Your foot constantly on the gas will produce the Necessary exhaust to keep the diffuser full of nice downforce.You don't need the retarding ignition to be run through the ECU its done as a drivers aid. We are not talking RPM, we are talking air flow in the form of a gas to feed the diffuser. The engine never changes RPM even when it shifts. This isn't a truck.

[alelanza]

Let me help you

You talk of keeping engine revs up. That is NOT an issue with an F1 car as it nearly runs at top rpm at ALL times.

The problem in concept comes from thinking the ECU is just revving up the engine to blow gases while setting the thing in neutral, like you would on a manual car

See? I'm talking about a manual car here, F1 cars aren't manual, thus i'm not talking about an F1 car. Is that easier to read?

You are kidding yourself with throwing down a heel and catching the brake with the toe.

Well, seems i'm not alone in kidding myself



hint: throttle pedal is on the right, yes, even aussies do it that way

Your foot constantly on the gas will produce the Necessary exhaust to keep the diffuser full of nice downforce.

I doubt you can keep an F1 gbox in neutral in order to do that

The engine never changes RPM even when it shifts.

Ehmmm... right.... don't know what to tell you, but i guess i shouldn't be surprised given that you drive karts using 'heel n toe'.
BTW, you never got me that list of right foot braking f1 drivers, i'll be around

[axle]

Jenson Button also right foot brakes...

No he doesn't - it was his ex-team mate Rubens that prefers it, though can brake with both.

[donskar]

RE: "Poor, poor Cosworth can't afford to implement the technology."

Cosworth does not have some sort of entitlement. BMW, Porsche, Peugeot, Motor Moderni, Judd, Ilmor, LIFE, Yamaha and others have come and gone, but F1 somehow survived. If Cosworth are not up to the very high demands of F1, then they should concentrate on other, very lucrative activities. That's racing AND business. Be brutally honest for a moment: if Cosworth withdraws and takes HRT, Virgin, and Williams with them, will F1 be hurt:
A) very little
B) a little
C) not at all
D) who are HRT and Virgin?

Be honest and pick one

[Rob01]

Alelanza.. F1 cars are not manuals. Give me a break. As of the 2009[update] race season, all teams are using seamless shift transmissions, which allow almost instantaneous changing of gears with minimum loss of drive. Shift times for Formula One cars are in the region of 0.05 seconds. Right foot brakers Senna , Prost, Rubens.. although Rubens occasionally uses the left foot.

[xpensive]

...
That said dimensionally the have the biggest diffuser and this will affect them.

I can't follow here JET, biggest in what respect, when the cross-section size of the diffuser xit is limited by the rules?

@ donskar;
Obviously C), Cosworth's presence in F1 is entirely MrM's making, his oiginal plan was to turn F1 into a one-make formula.

[Rob01]

Alelanza... In addition the throttle is not blipped when changing gear, (the throttle is not even lifted and the clutch is not used) gear changing in F1 is affected much faster by switching the ignition off and on. This modern part of the gear changing process replace the throttle blipping that had to accompany the double declutching of old times on what was then called the crash gearbox on road cars. Many of today’s systems and processes are very old indeed (sequential gear changing, clutch less gear changing, crash gearboxes) they are just refined

[alelanza]

Rob01,

F1 cars are not manuals. Give me a break.

In addition the throttle is not blipped when changing gear

Try to read this again, it should help i'm sure, i've even used bold print, you can't miss it this time around

I'm talking about a manual car here, F1 cars aren't manual, thus i'm not talking about an F1 car

Right foot brakers Senna , Prost, Rubens.

I hate to break it to you but Prost and Senna are no longer racing, if you go back in this thread you'll see present tense is being used. Another hint for you though: do you think having a clutch pedal in their first cars had anything to do with right foot braking? yeah, thought so. You might as well copy paste the entire list of F1 drivers pre 90's, as you can imagine they all HAD to use their right foot
Rubens, as i said, was the last right foot braker, and as far as i can remember it was reported he changed that while at Ferrari.
Anything else still unclear?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

...
That said dimensionally the have the biggest diffuser and this will affect them.

I can't follow here JET, biggest in what respect, when the cross-section size of the diffuser xit is limited by the rules?

@ donskar;
Obviously C), Cosworth's presence in F1 is entirely MrM's making, his oiginal plan was to turn F1 into a one-make formula.

Those rear wing "tassles" are effective extensions of the diffuser. McLarens protrudes more than any other making it the biggest.
I cannot source exact dimensions, im going by scarbs. And I may incur the wrath of tomba for answering an honest question honestly.

[marcush.]

throttle closed ..there is no word about a sealed system in the regs? they just stipulate the throttles must be solely controlled by the driver -accelerator pedal.
In a overrun condition you could quite easily open a hydraulically operated bypassvalve to get air through the engine...throttle closed ...

[gridwalker]

Rubens, as i said, was the last right foot braker, and as far as i can remember it was reported he changed that while at Ferrari.

I also believe that he had a lot of difficulty making the transition, as he had previously driven with his left foot riding the clutch pedal : when he swapped to left foot braking, his left foot started riding the brake, making his breaks run hot and marginally retarding his acceleration.

Ok, what was the topic again?

[Agerasia]

Considering downforce is affected by speed, every time a driver pushes the throttle down he is influencing the total downforce.