McLaren vs Lewis

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archiebald
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Joined: 10 Feb 2011, 00:18

McLaren vs Lewis

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I love watching Lewis race but I get supremely frustrated when obvious strategy calls cost us the chance of seeing him compete at the front.

Obviously Monaco 2011 Q3 is an excellent example of him being screwed by brainless strategy by the team.

Now, we are all human and can make mistakes but I would have thought that the guys at McLaren really ought not to be making so many blindingly obvious strategy calls. (Also, Button has suffered som times but that's a different topic)

I think everyone can remember China 2007 where leavng Lewis out on dead rubber caused him to lose the championship in his rookie season.

Another one that springs to mind is Monza 2008 and I can't remember where Lewis was criticising his team over the radio last year.

Maybe there are others, can anone list any they remember.

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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archiebald wrote:I love watching Lewis race but I get supremely frustrated when obvious strategy calls cost us the chance of seeing him compete at the front.

Obviously Monaco 2011 Q3 is an excellent example of him being screwed by brainless strategy by the team.

Now, we are all human and can make mistakes but I would have thought that the guys at McLaren really ought not to be making so many blindingly obvious strategy calls. (Also, Button has suffered som times but that's a different topic)

I think everyone can remember China 2007 where leavng Lewis out on dead rubber caused him to lose the championship in his rookie season.

Another one that springs to mind is Monza 2008 and I can't remember where Lewis was criticising his team over the radio last year.

Maybe there are others, can anone list any they remember.
Lewis should be eternally grateful for moving straight into a winning team without having to pay his dues. And then this? Ron Dennis should hunt you down and lynch you and hang your body from the front of the MTC.Go Macca!Obviously a joke I don't condone violence.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

archiebald
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Joined: 10 Feb 2011, 00:18

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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Pierce89 wrote:
archiebald wrote:I love watching Lewis race but I get supremely frustrated when obvious strategy calls cost us the chance of seeing him compete at the front.

Obviously Monaco 2011 Q3 is an excellent example of him being screwed by brainless strategy by the team.

Now, we are all human and can make mistakes but I would have thought that the guys at McLaren really ought not to be making so many blindingly obvious strategy calls. (Also, Button has suffered som times but that's a different topic)

I think everyone can remember China 2007 where leavng Lewis out on dead rubber caused him to lose the championship in his rookie season.

Another one that springs to mind is Monza 2008 and I can't remember where Lewis was criticising his team over the radio last year.

Maybe there are others, can anone list any they remember.
Lewis should be eternally grateful for moving straight into a winning team without having to pay his dues. And then this? Ron Dennis should hunt you down and lynch you and hang your body from the front of the MTC.Go Macca!Obviously a joke I don't condone violence.
Sorry, but do you know Lewis's history pre F1?

He paid his dues for about 11 years from around age 8 with hard work and exceptional talent. Why else do you think he got his chance with Mclaren in the first place?

An would you mind keeping it on topic please.

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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Exactly, lewis earned his spot in f1 probably more so then any other driver that has ever raced in F1.
The truth will come out...

Mandrake
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Joined: 31 May 2010, 01:31

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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HampusA wrote:Exactly, lewis earned his spot in f1 probably more so then any other driver that has ever raced in F1.
Ohh yea, being raised by Ron Dennis from early ages is so much harder work than a driver who has to look out for sponsors and managers that are willing to pay an initial sum to enter you into the top class of Motorsports in a low end F1 team.

Surely he had the talent, but that's why he was supported. I have no doubt that Perez in the McLaren would drive around at the back of the field....he would do the one and other rookie mistake, but so did Hamilton in his first season!

It's easy to blame either the team or driver, in the end both make decisions together. And if it had worked out, everyone would praise them for their brilliance (as someone already pointed out in another thread)

Hamilton should be thankful to sit in the McLaren, in a team that can go for new concepts and build a race winning car, a team which can respond and develop very quickly. He has never had to work his way up in a Virgin / Lotus / Toro Rosso....so he should indeed be thankful to the chance he was given. There is no team that has a record of being 100% correct in all strategic decisions!

beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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archiebald wrote:I love watching Lewis race but I get supremely frustrated when obvious strategy calls cost us the chance of seeing him compete at the front.

Obviously Monaco 2011 Q3 is an excellent example of him being screwed by brainless strategy by the team.

Now, we are all human and can make mistakes but I would have thought that the guys at McLaren really ought not to be making so many blindingly obvious strategy calls. (Also, Button has suffered som times but that's a different topic)

I think everyone can remember China 2007 where leavng Lewis out on dead rubber caused him to lose the championship in his rookie season.

Another one that springs to mind is Monza 2008 and I can't remember where Lewis was criticising his team over the radio last year.

Maybe there are others, can anone list any they remember.
I said this in the race thread, and I'll say it again here. Criticising McLaren for this move is pretty over the top. If the risk had paid off Lewis would have been in P1/2 with one more set of super-softs than anyone else. We'd all be calling them geniuses.

Yes, it was clearly a risk, a big one at Monaco, but it was well worth taking. In this case it didn't pay off... Some other time it may well.

doink
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Joined: 22 May 2011, 22:51

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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It seems like the strategy side of things has got a little worse since the departure of Ron, I guess they're still learning and developing, plus Lewis isn't the most easy of drivers to manage, I guess!

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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Mandrake wrote:
HampusA wrote:Exactly, lewis earned his spot in f1 probably more so then any other driver that has ever raced in F1.
Ohh yea, being raised by Ron Dennis from early ages is so much harder work than a driver who has to look out for sponsors and managers that are willing to pay an initial sum to enter you into the top class of Motorsports in a low end F1 team.
Yeah, his dad doing several jobs at a time to pay for his early racing had nothing to do with it. Nor his own hard work to develop his talent.

McLaren didn't pay for him until he and his father had already done the hard work of getting him in the limelight.

And just because he was in good cars didn't mean he was going to win automatically. He still had to deliver the goods. Which he did in spades.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Mandrake
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Joined: 31 May 2010, 01:31

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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Just_a_fan wrote:Yeah, his dad doing several jobs at a time to pay for his early racing had nothing to do with it. Nor his own hard work to develop his talent.
Talent cannot be worked on. You can use it to get experience and such, but if you're untalented, there's no way to to ever practice enough to become talented!

As highlighted, his father worked hard, but so did other dads to finance their son's racing career. MSC had the same! So in the end one could his father deserved Lewis to drive in a top team, because that's all he worked for (and is now repaid a lot more ;) )

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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Mclaren did not create Hamiltons talent. The kid was born with it.
i dont even understand how you can even mention Mclaren in Hamiltons success.

Mclaren wasn't tye one steering, braking and accelerating the car. Hamilton did and he earned his spot in F1 due to his total domination in other series before.

Mclaren should be thankful Hamilton stays at Mclaren and Ron knows this.
If you have the quickest driver in F1 you have an obligation to give him the best possible car because if you don't, he will leave.
Just like Senna. There is no such thing as loyalty in F1 despite a certain team financed some of your career.
The truth will come out...

archiebald
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Joined: 10 Feb 2011, 00:18

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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Why has this topic turned into a hate campaign?

What I was looking for was a list of dodgy strategy calls by the team that have cost Lewis races.

Equally Lewis has binned a few on his own merit and then there have been mechanical failures.

Just looking for the wonky strategy which I feel McLaren seems to have.

sAx
sAx
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Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 13:38
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Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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HampusA wrote:Mclaren did not create Hamiltons talent. The kid was born with it.
i dont even understand how you can even mention Mclaren in Hamiltons success.

Mclaren wasn't tye one steering, braking and accelerating the car. Hamilton did and he earned his spot in F1 due to his total domination in other series before.

Mclaren should be thankful Hamilton stays at Mclaren and Ron knows this.
If you have the quickest driver in F1 you have an obligation to give him the best possible car because if you don't, he will leave.
Just like Senna. There is no such thing as loyalty in F1 despite a certain team financed some of your career.
Inclined to agree, McLaren strategy calls highly debatable, often requiring raciness to pull off success. The team has not provided its' highly prodigious talent with the tools (strategy and/or design) to capitalise on his talent. Q3 on Saturday was quite remarkable in this context! So if we consider effect of the after race interview, the cause was certainly the Q3 decision that went against that provided for their other driver. It is a team trying to be a little bit too clever. Cleverness as @archiebald rightly highlights that cost him a WC in his rookie year.

sAx
Last edited by sAx on 30 May 2011, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.
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beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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sAx wrote:
HampusA wrote:Mclaren did not create Hamiltons talent. The kid was born with it.
i dont even understand how you can even mention Mclaren in Hamiltons success.

Mclaren wasn't tye one steering, braking and accelerating the car. Hamilton did and he earned his spot in F1 due to his total domination in other series before.

Mclaren should be thankful Hamilton stays at Mclaren and Ron knows this.
If you have the quickest driver in F1 you have an obligation to give him the best possible car because if you don't, he will leave.
Just like Senna. There is no such thing as loyalty in F1 despite a certain team financed some of your career.
Inclined to agree, McLaren strategy calls highly debatable, often requiring raciness to pull off success. The team has not provided its' highly prodigious talent with the tools (strategy and/or design) to capitalise on his talent. Q3 on Saturday was quite remarkable in this context! So if we consider effect of the after race interview, the cause was certainly the Q3 decision that went against that provided for their other driver. It is a team trying to be a little bit too clever. Cleverness as you rightly highlight that cost him a WC in his rookie year.

sAx
I think this is mostly down to the position McLaren are in. They have up until the last race or two had a clearly worse car than the RB7. Simply running a conservative strategy was a guaranteed way to end up with a Vettel win. Okay, it's only come off once so far, but that's better than 0 times.

That said, in Canada, I belive the track will play to the car's strengths, and they'll have clear superiority in the race (if not qualifying too). They hopefully won't go running any crazy strategies there.

sAx
sAx
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Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 13:38
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Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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beelsebob wrote:
sAx wrote:
HampusA wrote:Mclaren did not create Hamiltons talent. The kid was born with it.
i dont even understand how you can even mention Mclaren in Hamiltons success.

Mclaren wasn't tye one steering, braking and accelerating the car. Hamilton did and he earned his spot in F1 due to his total domination in other series before.

Mclaren should be thankful Hamilton stays at Mclaren and Ron knows this.
If you have the quickest driver in F1 you have an obligation to give him the best possible car because if you don't, he will leave.
Just like Senna. There is no such thing as loyalty in F1 despite a certain team financed some of your career.
Inclined to agree, McLaren strategy calls highly debatable, often requiring raciness to pull off success. The team has not provided its' highly prodigious talent with the tools (strategy and/or design) to capitalise on his talent. Q3 on Saturday was quite remarkable in this context! So if we consider effect of the after race interview, the cause was certainly the Q3 decision that went against that provided for their other driver. It is a team trying to be a little bit too clever. Cleverness as you rightly highlight that cost him a WC in his rookie year.

sAx
I think this is mostly down to the position McLaren are in. They have up until the last race or two had a clearly worse car than the RB7. Simply running a conservative strategy was a guaranteed way to end up with a Vettel win. Okay, it's only come off once so far, but that's better than 0 times.

That said, in Canada, I belive the track will play to the car's strengths, and they'll have clear superiority in the race (if not qualifying too). They hopefully won't go running any crazy strategies there.
The conservative approach following a Q1/Q2 analysis would be to send the driver out early in Q3 as he seemed to have the pace and a high likelihood of making it onto the front row. A less conservative approach (going out towards the end of Q3), might have brought forward a question like, 'what would happen if we get a safety car?'. Ironically the in commentary feed on the BBC, highlighted that they had never seen a driver out of his car in the middle of Q3 and pondered if there was something wrong with Lewis' car. MTC's mission control failed to see the logic of keeping it simple.

[...] hence a driver being put on the back-foot and reason for taking the slightest of opportunities to get back to the front during the race and clashes that were totally preventable.

sAx
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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: McLaren vs Lewis

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archiebald wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
archiebald wrote:I love watching Lewis race but I get supremely frustrated when obvious strategy calls cost us the chance of seeing him compete at the front.

Obviously Monaco 2011 Q3 is an excellent example of him being screwed by brainless strategy by the team.

Now, we are all human and can make mistakes but I would have thought that the guys at McLaren really ought not to be making so many blindingly obvious strategy calls. (Also, Button has suffered som times but that's a different topic)

I think everyone can remember China 2007 where leavng Lewis out on dead rubber caused him to lose the championship in his rookie season.

Another one that springs to mind is Monza 2008 and I can't remember where Lewis was criticising his team over the radio last year.

Maybe there are others, can anone list any they remember.
Lewis should be eternally grateful for moving straight into a winning team without having to pay his dues. And then this? Ron Dennis should hunt you down and lynch you and hang your body from the front of the MTC.Go Macca!Obviously a joke I don't condone violence.
Sorry, but do you know Lewis's history pre F1?

He paid his dues for about 11 years from around age 8 with hard work and exceptional talent. Why else do you think he got his chance with Mclaren in the first place?

An would you mind keeping it on topic please.
Off topic? the thread is called Lewis v Mclaren. I spoke of Lewis and Macca where did i go off topic? Every driver has to go through the junior ranks like Hamilton did. Alonso, Vettel etc. they all did. Vettel junior career was just as dazzling as Hamilton, was his first year at Red Bull, or Toro Rosso. Alons was incredible in the junior categories just as much as Lewis, was his first season at Renault? or was it Minardi? Lewis did not pay his F1 dues as much as other drivers. And statistically even with his first year in a Toro Rosso, Vettel is right with Hamilton. I'm not slagging Lewis. I just belive he should be thankful to Macca. Who else could've given him a better career that's tried ti hire him? Lewis knows he should be thankful to the team and has said as much.
P.S. On the F1technical/Lewis Hamilton forum, it's impossible to not have heard his pre F! history.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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