Button Proves Some Right

[strad]

Not only me, but many have said that one reason the driving has gotten so,,,how shall we say, Ungentlemanly?, is that the cars are so safe these days, that the drivers do things they wouldn't have tried getting away with back when it was known dangerous..
click photo for video..@ 24 seconds or so

[wesley123]

And yet drivers overtook more and better years ago... how ironic. I can remember overtaking manoevres from end 80ies/begin 90ies that were way better and more dangerous, and I wasnt even born yet when tohse overtakes happened! Maybe button can name a few of those dangerous overtaking manoevres because I cant think of one.

[strad]

Wesley...It isn't necessarily passing but the attempts and blocking maneuvers.
It's driving style...or lack there of.

[Pandamasque]

Yup. I agree. Drivers used to race and give each other racing room. That creates passing and re-passing opportunities. Now the tactic is to 'intimidate' the opponent off the road (e.g. Hamilton-Webber at T2 in Nurburgring).

[n smikle]

It takes two to tango. I think drivers should know when there are beat to the corner. Everybody wants to be clint Eastwood.

[Pierce89]

In the 80's if you had a line you got your line, you weren't shoved of the side of the track. I don't like it when someone has the inside and instead of holding the inside they push the outside guy off. My two favorite drivers are probably two of the worst about that maneuver. When Fred or Hami either one get's the inside, it's let me bye or I'll push you off in the kitty litter. I hate to see my two favorites do moves that would get me a lifetime ban from the SCCA if I pulled them in a race.

[richard_leeds]

Hmmm... lets think about gentlemanly drivers of past eras who didn't push others off track.

The Schumacher era ... oh oh

OK, how about the Senna era ... oh oh

Here's what the man himself had to say about the topic

[beelsebob]

I have no idea how all these people complaining about aggressive overtaking envision F1. Do they expect it to be just Schumacher vs Webber in canada all the time... drive past each other nice and "safely" on the straight with the DRS open?

That sounds like a pretty boring F1 to me.

You only need look at Hamilton and Button racing on track lap after lap after lap, aggressive overtakes every single lap to realise that it's not "dangerous" it's just plain exciting, and it's what makes F1.

[strad]

The thing with the Senna Schumacher model is that sure they are in it to win,,,but especially since Senna it has been win all all costs no matter...even if you hurt or kill someone,,,doesn't matter just win...it's just wrong and anyone with a conscience knows it.
F1 has turned into a sport Al Davis would love..."Just win baby...just win"
It's funny some of the people who deride me for thinking F1 is too safe are the ones that most sanction unsafe driving.

[Traction]

I suppose if you look through history a few drivers have gained a reputation as been dangerous to overtake based on what they have been involved in in the past.

[Pandamasque]

You only need look at Hamilton and Button racing on track lap after lap after lap, aggressive overtakes every single lap to realise that it's not "dangerous" it's just plain exciting, and it's what makes F1.

That's the thing. Button is Hamilton's team mate, so the latter makes an effort to leave the racing room, which he rarely does with others.

I have no idea how all these people complaining about aggressive overtaking envision F1. Do they expect it to be just Schumacher vs Webber in canada all the time... drive past each other nice and "safely" on the straight with the DRS open?

That's not overtaking, that just passing by, let's not talk about DRS. Being aggressive doesn't imply breaking the rules and forcing others off the road, into walls etc. It seems that Senna and Schu through their success legitimized that sort of behaviour.

[ringo]

I haven't seen any unfair driving this year.
Most of the time they were racing incidents. F1 isn't even aggressive any more.

Especially now that we have DRS, late braking is no longe required and neither is the cross over or any of those wicked moves we used to see in the past.

Now it's all about coming from behind with a big speed advantage and grip advantage.
No difficulty, just breeze by and guide the car through the turn entry; since you are overtaking off line. That's as hard as it gets.

The driving is as gentlemanly as it has ever been. It's shouldn't be like this.

[myurr]

You only need look at Hamilton and Button racing on track lap after lap after lap, aggressive overtakes every single lap to realise that it's not "dangerous" it's just plain exciting, and it's what makes F1.

That's the thing. Button is Hamilton's team mate, so the latter makes an effort to leave the racing room, which he rarely does with others.

I have no idea how all these people complaining about aggressive overtaking envision F1. Do they expect it to be just Schumacher vs Webber in canada all the time... drive past each other nice and "safely" on the straight with the DRS open?

That's not overtaking, that just passing by, let's not talk about DRS. Being aggressive doesn't imply breaking the rules and forcing others off the road, into walls etc. It seems that Senna and Schu through their success legitimized that sort of behaviour.

That seems a twisted account of things to me. Hamilton and Button are able to race each other on track as they both give each other room. Button never just turns in to Hamilton like other drivers have. Take Monaco where Hamilton came in for a lot of criticism. Both Maldonado and Massa turned in earlier during those manoeuvres than they had in previous laps - was Hamilton a bit optimistic sticking the car into those gaps? Yes he was, but at the same time both those drivers tried to turn in on him to aggressively defend from the overtake, making it a combination of both that caused each accident. Hamilton didn't hit Schumacher when making a similar overtake not because he did anything differently, but because Schumacher didn't turn in on him.

Also how many injuries or deaths did Senna or Schumacher cause through their "win at all costs even if they hurt people" attitude?

There's an melodramatic element in F1 with people using hyperbole to describe aggressive racing as people being out to kill others or risking peoples lives. That is not the case at all - there is not one driver in the history of F1 who would ever knowingly take another drivers life. Motor sport is dangerous, but to win you need to be the best and be prepared to race. All these aggressive overtakers ever do is be willing to engage in wheel to wheel racing, fighting it out on track to the best of their ability.

The flip side are the aggressive defenders, those that would rather clip another car or plain turn into them to prevent an overtake. I don't think they do it deliberately, but drivers like Massa and Webber tend to get hit more often than others when they're defending from an overtake. Barrichello has been guilty of this in the past as well, although I've not seen it since Brawn. These are the drivers that will close the door regardless of whether or not there is a car alongside.

Edit: To be fair to both Massa and Webber I think both have been a lot better in general this year.

[Pandamasque]

That seems a twisted account of things to me. Hamilton and Button are able to race each other on track as they both give each other room. Button never just turns in to Hamilton like other drivers have. Take Monaco where Hamilton came in for a lot of criticism. Both Maldonado and Massa turned in earlier during those manoeuvres than they had in previous laps - was Hamilton a bit optimistic sticking the car into those gaps? Yes he was, but at the same time both those drivers tried to turn in on him to aggressively defend from the overtake, making it a combination of both that caused each accident. Hamilton didn't hit Schumacher when making a similar overtake not because he did anything differently, but because Schumacher didn't turn in on him.

I don't disagree with that at all. It's a shame that LH's reaction to the penalties prevented many from looking at the fact, that he legitimately got side by side and then wasn't given room in both cases.
However in Nurburgring LH literally bumped Webber off the track in T2 while overtaking him (MW was on the outside), also drove Massa off the track at Silverstone exiting Club on the last lap. On both occasions there was no adequate reaction from the stewards, commentators or the public. Because that's now regarded as normal practice.

The flip side are the aggressive defenders, those that would rather clip another car or plain turn into them to prevent an overtake.

I don't see much difference between defence and attack in this context. The current level of safety is causing both defending and attacking drivers to act the way that may cause an accident, do things that most wouldn't do 30 years ago.

Also how many injuries or deaths did Senna or Schumacher cause through their "win at all costs even if they hurt people" attitude?

Clearly not enough.

[Mr Alcatraz]

F1 has turned into a sport Al Davis would love..."Just win baby...just win"

Al Davis
As a San Diegan by default I dislike him (after all he gave Gene Kline the heart attack that killed him). Check him out in this vid at about i:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrUgB55lLM4
He seems like a good guy and his description of Namath is very gracious.