Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[beelsebob]

His race performances were not significantly worse at all - he out-raced his team mates 70% of the time. And we all know the Webber fan boys like to quote how he is the unluckiest driver in recent history. I don't necessarily agree, but he has lost quite a lot of high point scoring positions in the past. That out-qualifying percentage was the highest in F1 at the time which you can't ignore.

If you remember his race wins in 2010, he performed in and controlled them like any recent champion I've seen, especially in Monaco where he was untouchable. Knowing that he has that sort of latent pace and performance makes it all the more frustrating that he does not have it on tap like Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton, but I wouldn't go as far as saying he is just a decent driver because those three drivers are unquestionably among the best the sport has ever seen.

The problem being that "he out-raced his team mates 70% of the time" basically amounts to "He beat the really crap driver (Klein) all the time, and then had a 50/50 record against the mid range drivers he was paired with"... Which again, puts him firmly as a middle of the road driver.

[Websta]

His race performances were not significantly worse at all - he out-raced his team mates 70% of the time. And we all know the Webber fan boys like to quote how he is the unluckiest driver in recent history. I don't necessarily agree, but he has lost quite a lot of high point scoring positions in the past. That out-qualifying percentage was the highest in F1 at the time which you can't ignore.

If you remember his race wins in 2010, he performed in and controlled them like any recent champion I've seen, especially in Monaco where he was untouchable. Knowing that he has that sort of latent pace and performance makes it all the more frustrating that he does not have it on tap like Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton, but I wouldn't go as far as saying he is just a decent driver because those three drivers are unquestionably among the best the sport has ever seen.

The problem being that "he out-raced his team mates 70% of the time" basically amounts to "He beat the really crap driver (Klein) all the time, and then had a 50/50 record against the mid range drivers he was paired with"... Which again, puts him firmly as a middle of the road driver.

I'm not sure where you get the 50/50 record from when he raced against Rosberg/Coulthard/Heidfeld. Anyway, I would put him in the upper echelon of the F1 grid, on the level of pre-2009 Massa, but if he doesn't get his act together this season, I'll have to reconsider.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I think a pre 2009 Massa would eat a current Webber.

[RB7ate9]

I think a pre 2009 Massa would eat a current Webber.

A pretty even match would be a 2010 Webber vs. 2008 Massa. Both of them could taste victory.

In that vein, I really hope we don't see a 2011 Massa in the 2012 Webber.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Agree RB7ate9.

Lets see what happens re the exhaust blowing. I think that had a massive effect on Webber.

[RB7ate9]

I concur with the exhause blowing effect.

Something that should be considered, but is inestimably hard to discern is the ability of the driver to make strategic calls. Something that affected Webber this year was the pirellis in terms of performance but also strategy. This is something that I think rewarded more consistent and calculated drivers, like Button this past year and Vettel, who could make contributions to the call to pit.

Something that could contribute to the definition of the "Vettel Era" could be the manner in which Vettel adds to technical development. It has been famously said that he was the only one to visit the Pirelli factory before the start of the season.

Additional food for thought: Driver Strategic thinking and Development Skills

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You think perhaps Vettel had a hand in developing the Pirelli?(a joke of course).

One thing that you have to give Vettel is that he managed the Pirelli tyre perfectly in 2011. Maintaining his speed and tyre longevity simultaneously was impressive to say the least.
How much of that was down to the RB7's characteristics, who knows as I recall Webber having a few good races with tyre management too in 2011.

As for strategy, I dont think its the drivers that make those calls. Engineers in the pitlane and various computer models for races, degradation and thousands of scenarios do that. I think Vettel is consulted, but he is guided into making the correct choices.
The only time a driver genuinely makes a great strategic call, is when the weather is inclement, as we have seen Button do so well.

[RB7ate9]

You think perhaps Vettel had a hand in developing the Pirelli?(a joke of course).

One thing that you have to give Vettel is that he managed the Pirelli tyre perfectly in 2011. Maintaining his speed and tyre longevity simultaneously was impressive to say the least.
How much of that was down to the RB7's characteristics, who knows as I recall Webber having a few good races with tyre management too in 2011.

As for strategy, I dont think its the drivers that make those calls. Engineers in the pitlane and various computer models for races, degradation and thousands of scenarios do that. I think Vettel is consulted, but he is guided into making the correct choices.
The only time a driver genuinely makes a great strategic call, is when the weather is inclement, as we have seen Button do so well.

If he did have a hand, then we WILL be seeing a Vettel Era!

In the same light of Vettel's handling of the tires in 2011, he appeared to have that calculated, Prost-like manner to eke out the maximum to a degree (i.e. give a buffer for the pits) but not to the point where he was making markedly fast laps every time 'round the track and destroy his tires. I chalk that up to a lot of the maturing from 2010. That's what scares me most about Vettel: he appears to be humble enough to always be willing to learn and improve himself. A driver who can control his ego (if not his finger)....*shudders*.

[raymondu999]

I still think that Webber was helped by the fact that off throttle maps came in late. You could see from China 2010 that he started changing his lines, going for lines that gave him more on-throttle time for the most downforce, as such a situation would have meant that you had more downforce as you spent more time on the throttle, if you catch what I'm saying.

I think he actually started his more Prost-ian approach in mid to late 2009. His Silverstone race he was pulling seconds a lap on everyone and won with a 20 second or so lead aheaad of Webber (due to Webber being stuck behind Barichello for the first stint) and only after the team reined Vettel in. In Suzuka 2009, he just maintained a 5 second lead through the race, opting to save fuel and tyres while sacrificing his pace advantage (he just maintained the gap to the chasing Hamilton/Trulli battle)

[RB7ate9]

That's interesting. I really wished someone would post more videos of the 2009 races. 2008/2010 are fairly covered (as mentioned in a thread about 2010 grand prix videos) and I would very much like to examine the rise of Vettel/Red Bull in the light of 2009, since so much of it was overshadowed by Button/Brawn.

Your memory astounds me

[Gerhard Berger]

Also, in 2009 with an inferior car Vettel came close to winning the WDC as well...

Wait a minute....what happened to the Red Bull revival in 2009? I was at silvertone and christ knows Vettel did not have an inferior car.
They were consistantly the 2nd best team and even come the final 3rd of the season they were the fastest.

Brawn on the other hand had a fantastic car that nearly fell apart with the team sometime being 3rd of 4th fastest car out there at various races in the second half of the season. Buttons start winning 6 of 7 races, and nearly being pipped was about Brawn GPs failure and not Vettels hustling.

I think Hamilton also won a couple of races in a "pig" against that Brawn.

But thats my opinion. No hate just honest to goodness forum debate.

I think Vettel's mistakes in the first half of the season ended up being quite costly.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I think Vettel's mistakes in the first half of the season ended up being quite costly.

Indeed.

Had he performed as he has in 2010/11, 2009 could have been different.

[bhall]

[Never mind. I don't want to start this again.]

[PlatinumZealot]

This morning it was not very good - I wasn't happy at all in the car. This afternoon was a bit better but with the conditions it is difficult to get a lot of running. It's more or less the same for all of us.

"The little time we had in the afternoon was quite okay. It's up to us to find the balance and understand the car a bit more on these conditions on this circuit, and hopefully go a lot quicker tomorrow.

"The important thing now is to make a step overnight and go from there. Track time is important when the car is still youn

[Mandrake]

And your point is exactly what?