Team Lotus vs Virgin vs HRT

[Neco FEROX]

The best of the rest?

I'm just curious to know everybody's view and opinion on the "back of the pack".

Team Lotus: Still unofficially established as the fastest of the three and occasionally get close to Q2 in qualifying, although they have the most retirements of the three.

Virgin: Currently placed as last due to not being able to beat HRT in terms of average finishes. Also they've abandoned their "digital only design approach".

HRT: Regularly matching Virgin in terms of race pace, no word on threating financial problems. The F111 seems to be a very basic car and it's appearance is very similar to a GP2 car.

[stevegek]

I think it's good these guys are out there. Often these teams take a bit more risk and build cool new things. Remember how Arrows and Tyrell experimented like hell? These are the teams wich can cause cool stunts.

However, I think they should improve more. Lotus is doing a fine job but they all still haven't caught up with Williams, Sauber and even perhaps Force India.

Another thing, these teams often are displayed more as hobbyteams, and for the fans this is good. There needs to be entry level teams for new drivers. These teams are perfect. Didn't Alonso start at Minardi?

[Pierce89]

I think it's good these guys are out there. Often these teams take a bit more risk and build cool new things. Remember how Arrows and Tyrell experimented like hell? These are the teams wich can cause cool stunts.

However, I think they should improve more. Lotus is doing a fine job but they all still haven't caught up with Williams, Sauber and even perhaps Force India.

Another thing, these teams often are displayed more as hobbyteams, and for the fans this is good. There needs to be entry level teams for new drivers. These teams are perfect. Didn't Alonso start at Minardi?

I agree with you about small teams experimenting more, but Virgin and HRT aren't even to thepoint where they can do that. I don't want to get rid of the new teams, I just want them to get it together and latch on to the back of the established teams instead of languishing multiple seconds behind them.

[Polarbear]

All everyone ever says is that these teams need to make progress - has anyone ever stopped to think that they are probably working themselves into the ground trying to close the gap? Why does everyone assume that they are at the back by choice?

Simply speaking, it's about money - Less Money = Lower Salaries = No Adrian Newey...that is the difference between all the teams and RBR.

Aero is king, and it is black magic - a lot of development is done by trial and error, and without the benefit of experience (either in personnel or as a competing team) it is hugely difficult and expensive to get it right.

Lotus have done very well, and Virgin have also progressed as this season has gone on - unfortunatley they started so far behind Lotus that they didnt stand a chance of catching them - at least they are closing the gap on the midfield, even though the relative position of the new teams has not changed.

HRT are nowhere near the race pace of either Lotus or Virgin - in fact, at a few races this year Virgin have lapped HRT. The fact that one lucky finish in Canada puts them ahead of probably the most reliable team on the grid is deeply unfair.

Next year could see the "new" teams be right on the back of the pack...we'll have to wait and see if they have "got it together"...

[beelsebob]

All everyone ever says is that these teams need to make progress - has anyone ever stopped to think that they are probably working themselves into the ground trying to close the gap? Why does everyone assume that they are at the back by choice?

Simply speaking, it's about money - Less Money = Lower Salaries = No Adrian Newey...that is the difference between all the teams and RBR.

s/lower salaries/fewer people/. That's the far more important factor. If you have 20 guys working on aero the car, you can have 5 working on the front wing, 5 working on the diffuser, 5 working on the suspension, and 5 on the transmission. If you have 100, well, you can choose much more easily what to develop - most of the car.

[Polarbear]

Absolutely bob...I just get so frustrated with everyone (Eddie Jordan in particular) being so hard on the new teams - surely he must know how hard it is, and it is now even harder due to increased reliability and more advanced aero...

[Belatti]

The time that is taking to them to catch up shows the level of refinement the "old" teams cars has through the years.

1991 was Jordans debut season. Gary Anderson and two more persons did a design from scratch and the cars where already availiable to score points (remember you had to get to 6th place) even when there where more than 30 cars and pre-qualy.

That really shows how hard and super-professional it got in the last 20 years.

[Neco FEROX]

I think all new teams have the ability to become a race winning, it just depends on how many years they take to become it.

Force India has the resources and financing, VJM04 doesn't seem to be matching VJM03 for overall consistence even though with di Resta instead of Liuzzi.

HRT's has been quite smart to hire Daniel Simon to design their livery as it really stands out and looks great therefore attracting more attention and more TV coverage.

Primarily I'd like to point out that as much as I loved the team I don't want these teams turning out into Super Aguri. Three years in and as far as I know bought 2 different chassis's off Honda (RA106, RA107).

[Fil]

HRT's has been quite smart to hire Daniel Simon to design their livery as it really stands out and looks great therefore attracting more attention and more TV coverage.

The smartest thing HRT has done in 2011 is take Red Bull's money to stick Ricciardo in the seat. That's gotten them more exposure and discussion than anything else that they've done this season.

[Petroltorque]

All everyone ever says is that these teams need to make progress - has anyone ever stopped to think that they are probably working themselves into the ground trying to close the gap? Why does everyone assume that they are at the back by choice?

Simply speaking, it's about money - Less Money = Lower Salaries = No Adrian Newey...that is the difference between all the teams and RBR.

Aero is king, and it is black magic - a lot of development is done by trial and error, and without the benefit of experience (either in personnel or as a competing team) it is hugely difficult and expensive to get it right.

Lotus have done very well, and Virgin have also progressed as this season has gone on - unfortunatley they started so far behind Lotus that they didnt stand a chance of catching them - at least they are closing the gap on the midfield, even though the relative position of the new teams has not changed.

HRT are nowhere near the race pace of either Lotus or Virgin - in fact, at a few races this year Virgin have lapped HRT. The fact that one lucky finish in Canada puts them ahead of probably the most reliable team on the grid is deeply unfair.

Next year could see the "new" teams be right on the back of the pack...we'll have to wait and see if they have "got it together"...

HRT are in 11th spot courtesy of the 13th spot Luizzi achieved in Canada by beating both Team Lotus and Virgin cars.
With regards being lapped AFAIK that only occurred in Monza when Ricciardo had a delayed start due to a gearbox problem. You would think that before posting on a Tech site you would search out the facts.

[Neco FEROX]

One of the sad things is that Kovalainen, Trulli & Glock are great drivers. I mean Heikki and Jarno are former race winners and Timo has had three podiums.

[CHT]

With the new technical tied up, new name and ownership, who do you reckon will come out top in 2012?

[Pieoter]

HRT are nowhere near the race pace of either Lotus or Virgin - in fact, at a few races this year Virgin have lapped HRT. The fact that one lucky finish in Canada puts them ahead of probably the most reliable team on the grid is deeply unfair.

BOTH HRTs out qualified BOTH virigns in India.