2012 Testing - Barcelona 2: 21-24 Feb

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:51 am

beelsebob wrote:
Moanlower wrote:This one image says enough about the expertise of the so called experts

These numbers would have some value if it was the winterchampionship where you knew they tried to lap as fast as possible. Half of the teams haven't even tried doing quick laptimes on fresh soft tyres and low on fuel around the same time of the day.

I think you're underestimating them here – you're right that the experts know only what we know – very little, but you seem to be asserting that they're basing their analysis of where they think teams are on how fast they've done a lap. Note that most of them put McLaren second; note also that McLaren have never done a single lap under 1:23 during testing, and that many of the midfield teams have. The analysis is based on more than just lap times, most likely looking at how the cars are handling at different places.


I was hoping Nick Heifield will be able to give some of his input this year. He was spot on with Red Bull a couple of years back.
CHT
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:25 am

Anyone have any information on the "filming" days Ferrari are doing today and tomorrow? Surely, this running is going to be used for more than just filming, with them likely to continue the setup direction Massa was praising on Friday.

Anyone agree/disagree? I also wonder if they'll use this opportunity to try a race distance, since continuous running is surely what is necessary for "filming" purposes? (with the added benefit that, unless I'm mistaken, no one will be able to see their times)
f1316
 
Joined: 22 Feb 2012

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:26 am

f1316 wrote:Anyone have any information on the "filming" days Ferrari are doing today and tomorrow? Surely, this running is going to be used for more than just filming, with them likely to continue the setup direction Massa was praising on Friday.

Anyone agree/disagree? I also wonder if they'll use this opportunity to try a race distance, since continuous running is surely what is necessary for "filming" purposes? (with the added benefit that, unless I'm mistaken, no one will be able to see their times)


Also, anyone know what they are/aren't allowed to do on these days?
f1316
 
Joined: 22 Feb 2012

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:51 am

f1316 wrote:Also, anyone know what they are/aren't allowed to do on these days?



Demo Tyres, Multiple cameras, no sensors. Everything else is fair game up to 100km running only.
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve
Hail22
 
Joined: 8 Feb 2012

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 am

Hail22 wrote:
f1316 wrote:Also, anyone know what they are/aren't allowed to do on these days?



Demo Tyres, Multiple cameras, no sensors. Everything else is fair game up to 100km running only.


Ah, OK, thanks for that. So a race distance is out then!

Still, seems like fortuitous timing, given their relative lack of progress compared to the other big teams.
f1316
 
Joined: 22 Feb 2012

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:57 pm

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=157

i don't think that this report after the first barca test is quite correct

the strange sound alluded to was apparent at jerez as well [ I didn't get to barca ], but only on the renault engined cars , especially Lotus

MGP only ran a 2011 car there , but I couldn't detect anything similar on the other merc powered cars ; reports elsewhere say that no teams were exploiting this....forgive me if I am sceptical about that

for those who haven't heard this trackside , the noise seems to be more towards being on acceleration than braking ...am I correct in assuming that , as the driver cannot use maximum power on exit to begin with , the excess 'power' could be used to produce extra downforce ?
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be
lebesset
 
Joined: 6 Aug 2008

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:00 pm

Or thrust? Is it not feasible that the teams are using these maps to simply aid the cars forward motion with high speed gasses? Or would the benefits be so minimal it wouldn't be worth it?
ajdavison2
 
Joined: 8 Dec 2010

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:00 pm

any thrust provided would be insignificant compared to the weight of the car.
dan_f1
 
Joined: 10 Feb 2012

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:11 pm

snoop1050 wrote:
siskue2005 wrote:havent you considered that this could be due to F-duct front wing?

noone even knows if it is a F-duct front wing its just guessing

Twitter: Craig Scarborough‏ @ScarbsF1 -
@f1janneb I hear Merc do have a f-duct front wing, but no the "W" duct solution. also something new on their DRS at this weeks test
siskue2005
 
Joined: 11 May 2007

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:31 pm

A few shots I took at the test.
I must admit the times were not really a true representation as we all know, some funny stories with Vettel chasing Hamilton lap after lap, clearly to put him off the test.
He tried it with Alonso who promptly came into the pits and then Schumacher and Button did the same on the Thursday so full race runs were often altered due to traffic and strategic positioning of cars, thats my opinion anyway
http://www.flickr.com/photos/73092712@N08/?saved=1
Force India were mighty and the car looked very well balanced
showcar
 
Joined: 21 Dec 2011

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:23 pm

showcar wrote:A few shots I took at the test.
I must admit the times were not really a true representation as we all know, some funny stories with Vettel chasing Hamilton lap after lap, clearly to put him off the test.
He tried it with Alonso who promptly came into the pits and then Schumacher and Button did the same on the Thursday so full race runs were often altered due to traffic and strategic positioning of cars, thats my opinion anyway
http://www.flickr.com/photos/73092712@N08/?saved=1
Force India were mighty and the car looked very well balanced
is that a hole in rb8's floor?
radosav
 
Joined: 5 Feb 2012

Post Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:33 pm

On sandbagging;
I still find it hard to believe that any team would be sandbagging in order to deceive other teams of their true pace. I think at this point, to the extent that teams aren't showing their full speed it is because they don't care and it is meaningless anyway. None of them know what the other teams are capable of at this point, so they are just trying to make their own car go as fast as possible. When race day comes, we will see who was most successful at that.

Just think about why a team would sandbag; they don't want other teams to know how fast they really are, so that... what, the others don't steal some innovation they have? As if other teams aren't already looking for innovations everywhere they can? I mean what, Ferrari is going to ignore the Sauber unless it runs a really fast lap, and then they are going to send some spies out to investigate? I think all the teams are investigating all the other teams anyway. Let's face it, a slow team may come up with a good innovation and just not be able to exploit it.

Next, there is no reason for Red Bull to sandbag because everybody expects them to be fast anyway. Same for Ferrari. Same for McLaren. Every other team will already be looking as closely as possible at those teams because they have the resources for the research and innovation. You could make the case that Mercedes or Sauber or Williams or TR or Lotus might not want to show their true speed, but the fact is, those are the guys that ARE showing speed, so they don't seem too concerned with tipping their hand. The rest of the teams would LOVE to have a run at the top of the timesheet don't you think? What a morale booster for Catherham that would be!

There is also a difference between a visible innovation and a hidden one. If a team has some internal magic going on, the other teams aren't going to be able to see it anyway, so no reason to sandbag it. So it would only be a visible innovation that would be subject to a sandbagging strategy, but because of all these other reasons, that seems unlikely too.
Finally, if a team has some top secret innovation, they are going to want to try it out as soon as possible. By it's very nature of being unique and creative, it will have a large "unknown" factor and need some testing time.

My one caveat is that a team may discover something during the course of testing and end up bolting on some magic parts at the last minute that might make it LOOK like they were sandbagging, when in fact I think it is much more likely that they really got the parts on the car as fast as they could.

That's my 2 cents anyway.
Maynard G. Krebs
 
Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

Post Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:07 am

I guess one answer to that is that teams could be exploring the fundamental workings or the 'baseline' of their cars, and doing so in a conservative way (low engine settings, high fuel etc). And also saving any new 'bolt-on' parts until the last possible minute (front and rear wings, exhausts, even floors). IE the last Barcelona test. As these will be the parts most readily copy-able by other teams.
scarlet
 
Joined: 7 Apr 2011

Post Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:24 am

really depending which end of the scale you are. For RBR, they will hardly ever show the true pace of the car until when it really matter.We have seen it many time during the past that over the race weekend they seldom top the time sheet during FP, even when they do they usually keep about 1-2sec worth of pace reserve for Q3.

So for testing, it is highly unlikely that front running team will show their true pace, I reckon they are only showing 85-90% of that the car is capable of doing for 1 quick lap.
CHT
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008

Post Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:27 am

I still think it wouldn't significantly hurt setup work to run the engines with marginally less RPMs/HPs during testing. The reliability of these engines under stress is already pretty much a known quantity. The drivers don't need to drive any differently and can still attack a circuit as much as they want. Besides, the extra top-end power comes into play mostly on straights & very fast sections. It should be fairly easy for a team to extrapolate how much speed & time they can gain over a lap once they open up the limiter.
ArchAngel
 
Joined: 15 Feb 2010

PreviousNext

Return to General chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CCBot [Bot], Google [Bot], Paper.li [Bot], Sevach and 6 guests