Caterham (Lotus) using stolen blueprints from Force India

[SiLo]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=45841

Interesting, I thought they seemed all goody-two-shoes over at Caterham. Perhaps I was wrong.

Mods, please delete/move this if it's already been posted/in the wrong place.

[GrizzleBoy]

I'm pretty sure I just read an article somewhere that said Caterham had been cleared of those accusations?

[Chalke]

As I read it Caterham were cleared, FI were asked to pay up their 850k euro bill to Aerolab, but were paid 25k euros for IP infringement for 'shortcuts' made when Aerolab started the T127 designs. In the scale of the settlement, I would call that a cursory amount to prevent further legal action and delay of the main payment.

Apparently, because the deal with FI broke down relatively suddenly (they were significantly behind on payment to Aerolab, and giving 'your cheque's in the post' excuses), when the new deal was struck to pen the T127, the FI data was still on the systems and although the design was new (it had to be - different engine, gearbox, specs from Lotus) it seems the Aerolab staff used some of it to get a headstart on the new project.

Notably, an early mockup of the T127 was photographed with FI's wheels and tyres at Aerolab which may have started this whole legal affair (and let FI avoid payment for this long).

I find Aerolabs actions understandable, if not legal. If you have a new car to design and you have templates etc in place to help you design a 2010 car which you created for someone not refusing to pay you... I can see why they might make use of them to start the T127 project.

While I wish the team and drivers at FI the best of luck, I do find that repeated visits to court and breaches of contract made by their higher management put the reputation of the team at risk. Though looking at Mr (not doctor) Mallya's dealings in the airline industry perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. I hope the Sahara group now heavily invested in the team do infact get control and run the operation with a little more professional dignity than the current management, for the sake of all the guys employed at the factory.

[King Six]

I find Aerolabs actions understandable, if not legal. If you have a new car to design and you have templates etc in place to help you design a 2010 car which you created for someone not refusing to pay you... I can see why they might make use of them to start the T127 project.

While I wish the team and drivers at FI the best of luck, I do find that repeated visits to court and breaches of contract made by their higher management put the reputation of the team at risk. Though looking at Mr (not doctor) Mallya's dealings in the airline industry perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. I hope the Sahara group now heavily invested in the team do infact get control and run the operation with a little more professional dignity than the current management, for the sake of all the guys employed at the factory.

To be fair. It's Caterham that find themselves in the court more than any other team. First with Group Lotus/Renault and now with Force India. Yet both times all the fans and media have attacked Lotus/Renault and now Force India. Fernandes has barged into F1 with all his PR and made monsters out of the existing teams, I'm not a fan of that and I'm not falling for it either.

If it wasn't for Raikkonen the boards and media would still look down on Lotus/Renault with extreme disdain as they always had.

Fernandes PR machine works overtime.

Also I wonder what the details are about Force India refusing to pay Aerolab, people are assuming that Force India essentially robbed Aerolab by getting free work done, it's never as simple as that. I'm sure they have their reasons for not paying them, which were found to be inadequate.

However, that doesn't give Aerolab or Caterham the right to use their IP. As they have been found guilty of, yet nobody bothers to mention that. It'll be interesting to see what the FIA make of this. Considering what they did to McLaren in 2007 for something similar, if perhaps worse however.

[beelsebob]

I find Aerolabs actions understandable, if not legal. If you have a new car to design and you have templates etc in place to help you design a 2010 car which you created for someone not refusing to pay you... I can see why they might make use of them to start the T127 project.

While I wish the team and drivers at FI the best of luck, I do find that repeated visits to court and breaches of contract made by their higher management put the reputation of the team at risk. Though looking at Mr (not doctor) Mallya's dealings in the airline industry perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. I hope the Sahara group now heavily invested in the team do infact get control and run the operation with a little more professional dignity than the current management, for the sake of all the guys employed at the factory.

To be fair. It's Caterham that find themselves in the court more than any other team. First with Group Lotus/Renault and now with Force India. Yet both times all the fans and media have attacked Lotus/Renault and now Force India. Fernandes has barged into F1 with all his PR and made monsters out of the existing teams, I'm not a fan of that and I'm not falling for it either.

Perhaps it's not because they're raving fans, but because Caterham has been found to be the innocent party in both cases. Perhaps it's because the encumbants will do anything to squash the successful looking new blood before it becomes too successful.

I don't know about you – but when a court finds them to be in the right, I don't put it down to the PR machine, I put it down to them being in the right.

[King Six]

I find Aerolabs actions understandable, if not legal. If you have a new car to design and you have templates etc in place to help you design a 2010 car which you created for someone not refusing to pay you... I can see why they might make use of them to start the T127 project.

While I wish the team and drivers at FI the best of luck, I do find that repeated visits to court and breaches of contract made by their higher management put the reputation of the team at risk. Though looking at Mr (not doctor) Mallya's dealings in the airline industry perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. I hope the Sahara group now heavily invested in the team do infact get control and run the operation with a little more professional dignity than the current management, for the sake of all the guys employed at the factory.

To be fair. It's Caterham that find themselves in the court more than any other team. First with Group Lotus/Renault and now with Force India. Yet both times all the fans and media have attacked Lotus/Renault and now Force India. Fernandes has barged into F1 with all his PR and made monsters out of the existing teams, I'm not a fan of that and I'm not falling for it either.

Perhaps it's not because they're raving fans, but because Caterham has been found to be the innocent party in both cases. Perhaps it's because the encumbants will do anything to squash the successful looking new blood before it becomes too successful.

I don't know about you – but when a court finds them to be in the right, I don't put it down to the PR machine, I put it down to them being in the right.

Except the court found them to be using Force India designs in their 2010 car. Also the court case for the Lotus affair wasn't clear cut either, but their PR machine and the fans turned it around for a victory. And yet Renault are now Lotus, and Lotus are now Caterham... they're not as innocent as you say they are. This is again, another trick. What would Force India and Renault have to gain from squashing the new team anyway? You say successful looking new blood, I say a team that hasn't done much if anything in the sport. You really think they were scared of Caterham? Give me a break...this team has such an overinflated sense of ego.

So guys, if Force India have gone to the FIA about Caterham using their designs in 2010...what will the FIA do about it? Remember what they did to McLaren in 2007?

[beelsebob]

Except the court found them to be using Force India designs in their 2010 car.

No, the court found that they didn't really copy anything at all, hence why Force India have to pay €700,000 to Caterham. They found that Caterham were guilty of a really minor infringement of a technical detail, and told them to scratch €25k from that €700k. That's hardly Caterham being the guilty party, is it

Also the court case for the Lotus affair wasn't clear cut either, but their PR machine and the fans turned it around for a victory.

Huh? Team Lotus asserted that they could use the name Team Lotus... Team Lotus were told by a court that they indeed could... What's not clear cut about that?

And yet Renault are now Lotus, and Lotus are now Caterham... they're not as innocent as you say they are.

Why would you continue to associate yourself with someone who's just back-stabbed you?

This is again, another trick. What would Force India and Renault have to gain from squashing the new team anyway? You say successful looking new blood, I say a team that hasn't done much if anything in the sport. You really think they were scared of Caterham? Give me a break...this team has such an overinflated sense of ego.

I'd say that they've successfully joined the mid field. I'd also say that that's worth about 10 million euros to any team they actually overtake. Wouldn't you spend a million trying to sue them out of existance if you thought it could save you 10?

So guys, if Force India have gone to the FIA about Caterham using their designs in 2010...what will the FIA do about it? Remember what they did to McLaren in 2007?

Perhaps the fact that the FIA haven't done that should tell you something

[King Six]

Except the court found them to be using Force India designs in their 2010 car.

No, the court found that they didn't really copy anything at all, hence why Force India have to pay €700,000 to Caterham. They found that Caterham were guilty of a really minor infringement of a technical detail, and told them to scratch €25k from that €700k. That's hardly Caterham being the guilty party, is it

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98237

"but did rule that a small number of parts had found their way on to the Lotus car at the start of 2010."

"Force India issued a statement saying it would now like the FIA to look into the matter - because there are strict rules in Formula 1 banning teams from using the IP of another team."

---

I'd say that they've successfully joined the mid field. I'd also say that that's worth about 10 million euros to any team they actually overtake. Wouldn't you spend a million trying to sue them out of existance if you thought it could save you 10?

The problem here is you're assuming evil intentions from the other teams, you're already coming off from a standpoint that the other teams are evil and Caterham is innocent in all of this. The complaints they had were pretty legitimate, enough for long winded court cases to go through. It's not just about teams wanting to squash a new team. You think too highly of Caterham for them to be viewed in such a way, they have achieved little in their three years in F1. Force India have improved much more than them in the same time, yet they are ignored/vilified. Perhaps if they went for a soft name like Lotus or Caterham to get the British monopoly on their side things would be different, but instead they tried to break out of that...and obviously it hasn't worked out for them. Who's gonna like a team with an Indian licence called Force India? Right?

And no, they haven't joined the midfield. If you saw how Williams, Sauber, Toro Rosso and Force India were qualifying and racing in Melbourne...haha.

Perhaps the fact that the FIA haven't done that should tell you something

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98237

Well, Autosport reported that article today at 7AM. We shall have to wait and see.

[Maynard G. Krebs]

I was at first a fan of Lotus (now Renault), but as that situation unfolded, I became pretty appalled. It seams that Dany Bahar wanted the name to himself for some reason (which I don't understand, why would you mind two teams running your brand?) and tried to force the law to give it to him. He lost, but it was obvious they were going to continue to use the Lotus name in some form, so why would Fernandes want to continue to promote that product after all they had done to him? So he bought a car company he could promote. Not too hard to understand.
As far as the current issue, I would want to know how much Team Lotus actually knew. They may be responsible because they hired Aerolab, but Aerolab could have designed those parts without telling Catherham where the original design came from. Also, in general, if someone doesn't pay you for your work, your work still belongs to you. So Aerolab could have been justified in using their own design, which no one else had paid for, and sell it to another company/team.

[Chalke]

Hmm, a little confusion seems to have crept into this discussion - FI aren't paying Caterham anything, Caterham were implicated by FI as being complicit in the illegal use of FI's IP by Aerolab. It's Aerolab that FI will be paying and who were found to be very slightly at fault.

The error itself was made by CAD technicians who rather than start new files, based some T127 CAD files on existing FI ones for specific parts of the car.

Catheram and Mike Gascoyne were essentially cleared of any wrongdoing by the court, with the exception that as a result of Aerolab's actions some FI IP was on their car at the very start of the season. It was also noted by the court that when Caterham took control of the design of the car, they pretty much threw out these parts and designed their own, in their own direction.

I'm getting my info from here : http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... 2/616.html Not a team's biased (or not) press releases.

With regards to the FIA, I can't see them taking any action as Caterham aren't the guilty party - they paid for some design work believing Aerolabs were providing them with unique material. If a team commisiioned Brembo or CI to produce a new brake disc, that was then sold on to other teams without their knowledge, it wouldn't be the buyers fault, it would be the company selling the product/design/info that is liable.

[Jersey Tom]

Also I wonder what the details are about Force India refusing to pay Aerolab, people are assuming that Force India essentially robbed Aerolab by getting free work done, it's never as simple as that.

I'd say often it is indeed just as simple as that, actually.

[Pierce89]

Also I wonder what the details are about Force India refusing to pay Aerolab, people are assuming that Force India essentially robbed Aerolab by getting free work done, it's never as simple as that.

I'd say often it is indeed just as simple as that, actually.

Pro racing is rife with teams who basically abuse suppliers as creditors.

I'm assuming this the kind of thing JT is talking about.

[Jersey Tom]

Something like that. Have seen or heard a number of cases where payments to suppliers are let's say, less than concrete - and for no reason other than the money isn't really available and they're trying to stretch to get what they can until the dollars hopefully arrive.