Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

[Ray]

"At the moment i think Vettel is the most immature champion ever in F1."
Either you've been watching Formula One since 2010 or you apply a double standard. Calling names, flipping birds, being grumpy. Hell, look at your precious Hamilton in Australia to see grumpy. The fact you apply this only to Vettel just shows the ridiculousness of your statement.

Being quiet and looking a bit down when you've just been upstaged by your team mate is very different to flipping out inside the car, racing round the track on three wheels just so you can wave your finger at another driver. Remove the rose tinted spectacles and you'd see that what GrizzleBoy is saying is true.

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand, hence the stupid catch phrases, waving finger, favouritism, instant siding with him after Turkey 2010, etc. They're trying to build the next Schumacher and have created an entire public persona for him. Heck they've even encouraged the "baby Schumacher" comparisons.

Reality doesn't match up with that construct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.

Lewis being flown around on a wire while wearing team kit and getting everything he eve wanted at McLaren until Jenson showed up, people tripping over him to kiss his ass about being the next Senna, and the constant knobbing he gets from EVERY British commentator and announcer is any different how? The guy is the most talented dude to hit F1 in easily 10 years, BUT I immediately took a disliking to him because of all the "Senna" praise he accepted. Yes, he came within 1 point of winning the championship first try, but he didn't. Alot of people forget, or choose to ingnore, that Alonso very nearly won a third straight championship save for one point and for a lack of about 5 more he'd be a 4 time WDC. Those very same people keep saying that Lewis "beat" Alonso, not true in strictly points comparison. He beat him according to 2nd place finishes. What has Lewis done since then 2008? Gotten beat fair and square by his teammate Jenson, which almost all of you laughed him off and said he'd be nowhere near Lewis. Guess what? The Emporer has no clothes. When things don't go Lewis' way, he fails. Just like every other human being. Difference is Lewis was getting his ass throughly kissed long before he won the WDC, Vettel got the same level of treatment only after he'd won TWO of them.

[myurr]

Being quiet and looking a bit down when you've just been upstaged by your team mate is very different to flipping out inside the car, racing round the track on three wheels just so you can wave your finger at another driver. Remove the rose tinted spectacles and you'd see that what GrizzleBoy is saying is true.

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand, hence the stupid catch phrases, waving finger, favouritism, instant siding with him after Turkey 2010, etc. They're trying to build the next Schumacher and have created an entire public persona for him. Heck they've even encouraged the "baby Schumacher" comparisons.

Reality doesn't match up with that construct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.

AGAIN, you're avoiding the point. I give you an example of Hamilton being grumpy. YOU attack Vettel AND ONLY VETTEL for behavior not uncommon among competitive Formula One champions.

Try reading my response again, I address your point.

[Miguel]

Those very same people keep saying that Lewis "beat" Alonso, not true in strictly points comparison. He beat him according to 2nd place finishes.

Small correction: Lewis beat Alonso on one more 5th place finish. In races they both finished, Alonso was one-up.

Regarding thecucumber comment, I find it as bad as the "monkeys at the back of the grid" by Hamilton. It is somewhat worse than the full of malice comment of Alonso on Petrov last year after Melbourne: "Petrov only has one good race per year". On the other hand, if I made millions, had gotten to F1 by basically trashing everyone and anyone I've raced before, and were adulated to no end, maybe I'd also make these comments.

[mnmracer]

I have personally never seen any driver who literally just won a world championship for the second time in a row instantly turn to permanent sulk mode since the end of testing because their car is not immediately winning them races.

<snip> you're using the "Yeah but Hamilton was grumpy too that time, so why are you commenting on Vettel being grumpy?" thing as if to say our points are invalid.

If it was as simple as that, noone would have given a flying donkey that Hamilton started beating up on himself during the middle of 2011 and it wouldn't have gotten any media attention.

What makes it worse for Vettels case, is the fact that he has JUST become a back to back world champion and was for the past two years, viewed as a person who couldn't melt butter in their mouth if they jumped into the sun.

Yet he has already tarnished his own reputation within two races simply because he is not in an automatically winning/barely legal car anymore, has shown his true side as opposed to the bubble gum child image and people are picking up on it.

You really need to stop mixing up facts and fiction. In one post, you are upset with Vettel for things other people attribute to him, and then you go on blaming him for something you attribute to him; claiming he is in permanent sulk mode is simply untrue. He is unsatisfied, as any driver would be in his position, and he had a bad weekend in Malaysia, but 'permanent sulk mode' is just a brain fart by fanboys. His mood is still mild compared to Alonso's mood in a championship-contending car in 2007.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about whether a driver is grumpy or not. But if it is the end of the world to you that a driver is grumpy, you must at least hold them all to the same standard. Otherwise you're just looking for sad excuses to hate on a driver.

Being quiet and looking a bit down when you've just been upstaged by your team mate is very different to flipping out inside the car, racing round the track on three wheels just so you can wave your finger at another driver. Remove the rose tinted spectacles and you'd see that what GrizzleBoy is saying is true.

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand, hence the stupid catch phrases, waving finger, favouritism, instant siding with him after Turkey 2010, etc. They're trying to build the next Schumacher and have created an entire public persona for him. Heck they've even encouraged the "baby Schumacher" comparisons.

Reality doesn't match up with that construct and there is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.

AGAIN, you're avoiding the point. I give you an example of Hamilton being grumpy. YOU attack Vettel AND ONLY VETTEL for behavior not uncommon among competitive Formula One champions.

Try reading my response again, I address your point.

<snip> you're holding him to a double standard by not only blowing things out of proportion, but also making him out to be a devil in a world full of angels.

So what? Alonso can make a happy jump, show fingers (long before Vettel) and do dances on his car, and it's happy and good and showing emotion, but everything Vettel does is just a show? Can you even take yourself serious with such a blatant double standard?

[ringo]

Hamilton, though being most wanted by the FIA on track, simply hasn't flipped off or disrespected another driver's team or job.

To be fair, he called Massa and Maldonado "absolutely frickin ridiculously stupid"

He was referring to the stewards decision and the weekend. I'm not saying LH's perfect, but when it comes to being the reigning champ, Vettel seems to forget that he's to set an example for motor racing.

He doesn't have the six tenths like Alonso

those 6 tenths were in terms of car development though, he didn't say it as in terms of being 6 tenths quicker as a driver.

I am starting to believe that things have now changed speed. He is truly 6 tenths faster than Massa. Lol, any how the proverbial "6 tenths" to me means a clear speed advantage over one's teammate.

the Chinese GP showed that the guy still can go fast in clean air on an offset strategy.

I think while Vettel is far from being rhe best overtaker, he does have a knack of defense against a quicker car, and he is undoubtedly still quick in clean air in race pace on these tyres, without burnng them too much. Spain and Monaco last year showed that, and Brundle also said that Vettel seems to have a great way of reading a chasing car's body language. Most of his contra strategies have, as such, been based around less stops, rather than more stops.

He's not a great defender to me. He's good at blocking legally. Great defense is like Alonso or Hamilton, holding down a much faster car for a quarter of a race.
Vettel is improving though. But i would like to see more strategic positioning instead of outright squeezing.

His early on throttle style is greatly neutered by the lack of floor blowing.

he often likes to underspeed on the way into a corner at times. I think you also spotted it some time back. He sometimes brakes early so he can go on the throttle earlier. Maybe this doesn't work now, as he'll get understeer when he's on the throttle, and so wouldn't make the apex or would run out of road.

Yes, and he opens the steering a lot on corner exit.

When it comes to resolve though. Shumacher to me is superior to any of these drivers. Rosberg is opening a can of whoop ass on him, and he doesn't seem perturbed by it. He's the strongest mentally. Vettel has to buckle down and try figure out what webber is doing. He's letting the smack down get to him emotionally. If he doesn't he'll be Webber's foot stool for the whole season. Webber is looking very handy, and you can even see in his crispy pit stops that the mechanics are fully behind him now.

[GrizzleBoy]

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You haven't actually addressed a single point of the text you've quoted.

[PlatinumZealot]

What has Lewis done since then 2008? Gotten beat fair and square by his teammate Jenson

Ah.. but Hamilton's speed was never challenged by Button. Button only beat him on mental strength. Which is normal because of what Button has gone through.

All the praises are heaped on Hamilton because of his speed and style. None of those have ever been disputed. However with Vettel, he is praised almost religiously for his SPEED, Mental strength, and NICENESS ... And this year.. his speed is under question, his mental strength is under question and his NICENESS.

[Ray]

You haven't actually addressed a single point of the text you've quoted.

The accusation that Vettel is/has been turned into a brand by Red Bull applies directly to Lewis as well. McLaren, Lewis and the British/Formula 1 media storm turned Lewis into the second coming of Ayrton Senna. Which was overblown, stupid, childish, lame and sad all at once. I wasn't refuting a point, I wasn't trying to prove anyone wrong. I was merely showing that what can be said about Seb can be applied to Lewis.

[Ray]

Ah.. but Hamilton's speed was never challenged by Button. Button only beat him on mental strength. Which is normal because of what Button has gone through.

Excuses. It doesn't matter how you beat a person in competition. You can apologize for Lewis not performing all you want, he was beaten by someone everyone laughed at. Making up silly childish reasons why he was beaten is pointless, the man was outraced fair and square by a person that almost everyone in the F1 media world, and the vast majority of people here dismissed almost outright. Everyone that doubted the challenge that Jenson presented was and is a damn fool. NO ONE is unbeatable and everyone that claimed him to be when Jenson joined the team looked like a damn fool.

All the praises are heaped on Hamilton because of his speed and style. None of those have ever been disputed. However with Vettel, he is praised almost religiously for his SPEED, Mental strength, and NICENESS ... And this year.. his speed is under question, his mental strength is under question and his NICENESS.

So every racer must be a ruthless asshole? What's wrong with being a regular dude who can drive a racecar fast? His speed isn't under question, his mental strength isn't compromised, and he's still a cool guy. Only the petty and childish would question any of that. He's focused on getting better, that's his job. If he's grumpy about it, guess what? He's only human! How many times have we seen Lewis act like a spoiled child? How many times has Schumacher acted like an ass when things didn't go his way? And Alonso? The fire burns bright in that dude. If all you have to complain about and talk about is the grumpiness of a two time world champion, you need to get a damn life.

[GrizzleBoy]

Red Bull and Vettel have been trying to turn Sebastian into a brand..

You do realise your whole argument amounts to "yeah but Hamilton did X so your point is invalid"?

You haven't actually addressed a single point of the text you've quoted, you just seem to be playing a childish 1up game and trying to trash Hamilton because someone spoke the TRUTH about Vettel.

That's pretty sad tbh.

I guess you can't read. The accusation that Vettel is/has been turned into a brand by Red Bull applies directly to Lewis as well. McLaren, Lewis and the British/Formula 1 media storm turned Lewis into the second coming of Ayrton Senna. Which was overblown, stupid, childish, lame and sad all at once. I wasn't refuting a point, I wasn't trying to prove anyone wrong. I was merely showing that what can be said about Seb can be applied to Lewis.

Who cares if it applies to Lewis?

How does that change that Vettel is showing himself to be unstable literally the very second his car isn't automatically on the front row every race?

When Lewis was having his moment, it was widely talked about.....EVERYONE talked about it......people would not stop talking about it....

Now Vettel is having his turn.......but we musn't say a thing about it?

We cant talk about the truth of what we see, or does that only apply for certain people?

[Richard]

There have been some good points in this thread, but it was inevitable that the handbags would come out at some point. Thread paused... might come back once the protagonists have cooled off.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hand ... paces.html

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6EEBUExws8[/youtube]