Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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SeijaKessen
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Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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I was having a conversation with a friend about Alain Prost and Michael Schumacher, and we kind of segued into this conversation.

This is open to any F1 driver past or present.

Looking at what Fernando Alonso has been doing this season with the F2012, I've been thinking about what it takes to truly pull performance out of a race car.

If you were to design a F1 car, and you wanted to truly know what the absolute limit of performance of the the car is, who would you want driving the car to be completely sure the car was pushed as far as it can go in whatever the current formula allows for (not necessarily the 2012 formula). Or are there certain drivers who were only good at extracting performance out of a car in certain formulas, and not others?

GrizzleBoy
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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I think driving styles and how it mates with the strengths and weaknesses of the car in question makes this question a bit complicated.

RB7ate9
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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Based on this season: Fernando Alonso.

Ever? I may still have to say Alonso, but also Senna and Stewart. All three are great drivers that really push the limit of the car but are also great development drivers providing feedback to engineers.

Their driving styles are varied to certain degrees: Alonso is pretty hard, but calculated. Senna's balls-to-the-wall, while Stewart is very much smooth-is-fast (but that can be understood when considering the cars he drove). The main thing, though, is that these three can understand the limits of the car and proceed to push them beyond (i.e. Alonso as he has been doing with Ferrari, Senna in the Toleman, Stewart with BRM).

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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GrizzleBoy wrote:I think driving styles and how it mates with the strengths and weaknesses of the car in question makes this question a bit complicated.
I agree, it's probably a bit more difficult than I noticed at first.

Let me ask this to you, or anyone else for that matter because it might help narrow things down.

What drivers were considered very good for their time, but when the formula changed they were unable to cope with the changes in the formula?

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N12ck
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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I would say, Hamilton, Alonso, are the current f1 drivers who can pull everything out of a car possible,
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Speedster
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I think any of the big champions. Alonso, Hamilton are most obvious in the current era, but if you look at the difference between Prost and his teammate over the years he got the best out of cars too, which weren't always the best.

Hill in Budapest is also a prime example, but he didn't do it to that extent in other races that year. Actually, I say that but you never know. A car can never be driven faster than possible, but it is virtually impossible to know if a driver delivers the absolute maximum every time (I know there is telemetry and all, so a close estimated guess would be possible). We also tend to focus on the front of the grid when talking about things like this. I was also very impressed by De la Rosa in Monaco, who is always thrashing K. of course, but this time he was also in the mix with the Marussia's. Does it mean he finally extracted the maximum out of the car?

xpensive
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Obviously Gilles, Senna and Ronnie Peterson all had the gift of bringing any shitbox to the front, but an unsung hero in that respect was to my mind Chris Amon, taking an Ensign to third spot in Sweden 1976 was pure magic.
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SeijaKessen
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xpensive wrote:Obviously Gilles, Senna and Ronnie Peterson all had the gift of bringing any shitbox to the front, but an unsung hero in that respect was to my mind Chris Amon, taking an Ensign to third spot in Sweden 1976 was pure magic.
I will never understand how Chris Amon never won a Grand Prix. It always feels like it is a massive typo.

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SeijaKessen
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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How was Nelson Piquet when it came to wringing out something out of a car?

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raymondu999
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I seem to remember Keke and Alain being good examples of drivers who had see-sawing fortunes though I don't 100% remember. Pre-turbo Keke was quicker given his greater commitment through corners and using his tail to rotate the car. In the turbo days however, Alain kept his "smooth is fast" style, and was quicker, because the time Keke lost trying to regain the car's traction (after the tail stuck out), Alain was powering out on the turbo power.
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Cam
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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Maybe Senna? He always found something in the car when in the wet and consistently seemed to find ten tenths for a one lapper? He was always involved with the engineers too (so I believe), if so he would've had a good idea where the limits were for each setup.
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djos
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I know he's not a WDC but i'd add Mark Webber to that list, he has over his career consistently found performance in that cars that his team mates couldnt find, this was especially noticeable in his days at Jaguar were he frequently put that car way further up that grid than it deserved to be and he did the same at Williams.

We Aussies hear regular reports in our qually & pre-race telecasts that Vettel has ended up using Mark Webbers car setups because he wasn't happy with his own and has then gone on to grab pole and win etc - imo Monaco this year was proof that Vettel has a lot to learn about car setup as his was dismal in qualifying and we've seen him out qualified by Mark in all bar one race this year because he's been reportedly unhappy with his car.

It seems Mark can drive an imperfect car to it's limits and Seb cant, same goes for Alonso vs Massa.
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raymondu999
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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djos wrote:I know he's not a WDC but i'd add Mark Webber to that list, he has over his career consistently found performance in that cars that his team mates couldnt find, this was especially noticeable in his days at Jaguar were he frequently put that car way further up that grid than it deserved to be and he did the same at Williams.

We Aussies hear regular reports in our qually & pre-race telecasts that Vettel has ended up using Mark Webbers car setups because he wasn't happy with his own and has then gone on to grab pole and win etc - imo Monaco this year was proof that Vettel has a lot to learn about car setup as his was dismal in qualifying and we've seen him out qualified by Mark in all bar one race this year because he's been reportedly unhappy with his car.

It seems Mark can drive an imperfect car to it's limits and Seb cant, same goes for Alonso vs Massa.
Alonso vs Massa I would sort of just about agree. Between Webber and Vettel, form has fluctuated and seesawed too much between the two to really draw any ultimate conclusions. Both are obviously very good, fast qualifiers. But there have been times when one has been comprehensively dominated by the other, and vice versa. Some of it we can put down to circuit. For example Seb seems to always have the legs on Mark in Suzuka, Mark always seems to have the legs on Seb in the Nurburgring. But sometimes they fluctuate on form even on the same circuit, such as Brazil 2009, 2011, Webber beat Vettel, while in 2010 it was the other way around.

I think picking a single driver who you know will be on the balls-to-the-wall limit, you'll have to pick one who consistently beats his teammate, and any dip below the teammate in result is an aberration, really. But to be honest I'm not sure such a driver exists nowadays (Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel probably come close, but they're not *there* if you know what I mean) or even if they ever did. Drivers are humans, and humans (almost as a rule) are inconsistent anyways.
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djos
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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I generally agree ray, the one really big blight on Webber's copybook is his failure to understand the Pirelli tires last year until quite late in the season (heck even Lewis took a while to adapt). However Vettel has shown many times if he isn't 100% happy with the car then he really struggles, not to the same level as Massa or JB but he does take a big hit.

Webber, Alonso & Hamilton have all shown they can drag a car kicking and screaming up the order and live with imperfections, that in my book makes them more impressive.

Senna was mentioned earlier, imo he was the ultimate embodiment of getting the maximum even from sub-standard machinery - that FW16 that ultimately killed him was a very tricky car to drive (was supposed to have active suspension etc but FIA Nazi's banned it shortly before the 94 season started) and yet Senna still managed to grab pole positions with it.

IMO, it's when the cars aren't all that great we see who is really worth his pay check. 8)
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Cam
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Re: Picking a driver to pull performance out of a car

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djos wrote:IMO, it's when the cars aren't all that great we see who is really worth his pay check. 8)
Webber stood out at Jaguar and at Williams in quite average cars, which is what took him to Red Bull possibly. I remember watching him finish 5th at the Australian GP and the commentators were talking about how the team overlaid his telemetry against others and it really showed how he entered and exited corners quite differently, which made the difference.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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