Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Post Reply
grano123
0
Joined: 18 Nov 2007, 18:21

Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

What doesn't made sense to me reading all the "cut costs" talk today in F1, that they then come out and say that at a minimum the costs of the new turbo engines will double the bill and to some triple it for 2014 to somewhere near 30 mil!!

That would seem ludicrous to me and doesn't really make any sense changing engines other than to make some companies alot of money. How much can it possibly cost to design and build a new engine today, and why are they doing it, especially when F1 is the best racing for years.......:)

Speedster
0
Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 16:39

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

Without engine change, Formula 1 would be running on 8 year old technology in 2014. I'm very happy with an engine stir-up, even though the V6-Turbo formula is not my favorite one. Formula 1 is barely about engines and oil and things related anymore, and it's still motorsport after all. To be honest, I care more about interesting engines than about another new aero-piece on a front wing.

ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

The budget for Renault to design their new V6 Turbo is arround €200m before it hits the track in 2014 compeditivly. Mercedes is a rumored €40m more than Renault. PURE and Ferrari havnt disclosed nor any rumor has came out of them. Cosworth have said they will need arround €150m but will probably need in excess of that.

The suppliers need to recoup those costs and cover the cost of constant upkeep of the power trains as well.

€30m a season isnt that bad as all engines will have to be within 1% of each other power wise so that there is no "Works Team Advantage" with the latest spec engine seemingly, however that is at the start of the engines lifespan. Most teams will be using a engine, KERS and transmission as common items, however it is expected that Williams and Lotus will produce their own transmission.

Engine suppliers wont recoup their initial R&D costs, however if they get €30m a season from 3 teams that ill mean they will make a €10m loss as it is expected that the 2014 engines will require €100m a season maintanaince budget.

However there is a rumore that LMS/WEC are to allow the 2014 V6s in for Le Mans, probably LMP2, for a budget of €5m a season per car, whitch will give the LMP2 guys 6 powertrains per season, 2 for Le Mans, 1 for testing and 3 more for WEC events, however the engines will be detuned from 700-750Hp for F1 to arround 525Hp for LMP2 for relyability as Le Mans will requre the engine to last at least 5,600km on average and probably closer to 7,000km for a race winner.

However there is also another rumor that the GP2 guys will be given a detuned F1 engine for the season, or more probably 2 engines per car for the season with an additional 1 for testing. This could bring in an aditional €5m a season per GP2 team.

The V6s will cost, but there is other opertunities outside F1 to recoup more costs and posibly be at a tear on year profit.

The engine itself isnt the main cost of the development it is arround 30%, of the costs, the main cost is getting the 2014 KERS systems and HERS systems running and integrated. However for me id limit the usage of the KERS and HERS batteries to 5 per year as those things are where the real cost will be, and limiting the ammount of them will reduce costs.

TzeiTzei
5
Joined: 09 Mar 2011, 21:19

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

ESPImperium wrote: However there is a rumore that LMS/WEC are to allow the 2014 V6s in for Le Mans, probably LMP2, for a budget of €5m a season per car, whitch will give the LMP2 guys 6 powertrains per season, 2 for Le Mans, 1 for testing and 3 more for WEC events, however the engines will be detuned from 700-750Hp for F1 to arround 525Hp for LMP2 for relyability as Le Mans will requre the engine to last at least 5,600km on average and probably closer to 7,000km for a race winner.
I think the LMP2s are currently limited to €325000, so €5m is probably way too much. In LMP1 however, nothing really prevents the teams from using detuned F1 engines from 2014 onwards. But once again due to the costs, manufacturer teams are probably the only ones capable of using them.

As for F1, well most of the teams can't afford the rumoured €20-30m price for engines. That's about half of HRT's yearly budget, so i wonder what they're gonna bolt on their cars.

ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

TzeiTzei wrote:
ESPImperium wrote: However there is a rumore that LMS/WEC are to allow the 2014 V6s in for Le Mans, probably LMP2, for a budget of €5m a season per car, whitch will give the LMP2 guys 6 powertrains per season, 2 for Le Mans, 1 for testing and 3 more for WEC events, however the engines will be detuned from 700-750Hp for F1 to arround 525Hp for LMP2 for relyability as Le Mans will requre the engine to last at least 5,600km on average and probably closer to 7,000km for a race winner.
I think the LMP2s are currently limited to €325000, so €5m is probably way too much. In LMP1 however, nothing really prevents the teams from using detuned F1 engines from 2014 onwards. But once again due to the costs, manufacturer teams are probably the only ones capable of using them.

As for F1, well most of the teams can't afford the rumoured €20-30m price for engines. That's about half of HRT's yearly budget, so i wonder what they're gonna bolt on their cars.
True, but my guess is that the F1 engine suppliers will want to posibly sell by the unit as well, so if a team wants 2 units for Le Mans, €500,000 a unit will a decent figure.

As for the smaller teams in F1, the RRA is rumored to have a minimum budget as well, the figure ive heard is €85m a season, so that would give HRT and Marussia a headache, but would also give them €65m for a season. Sauber are doing this year on €95m, and are being used as the case study for the lower end RRA and budget cap regs as they are the 3rd worst funded team in F1 and look at their results this year.

The team that is being used as the upper limit case study is Lotus, who are operating from €180m pre Lotus pull out, whitch is now closer to €160m now.

However, when it comes to the best funded team on the grid, this year saw Ferrari passed by Red Bull, Ferrari have reduced their budget closer to what McLaren have, however still are arround €60m more than McLaren, Ferrari are operating a budget of €300m this year.

F1 Teams Budgets for 2012:

Red Bull-Renault = €265m - €380m Adjusted
McLaren-Mercedes = €250m
Scuderia Ferrari = €310m
Mercedes AMG F1 = €200m
Lotus-Renault = €180m - €160m Adjusted
Force India-Mercedes = €125m
Sauber-Ferrari = €85m
Toro Rosso-Ferrari = €115m
Williams-Renault = €115m
Caterham-Renault = €105m
HRT-Cosworth = €50m
Marussia-Cosworth = €70m

All figures rounded to nearest €5m as teams often get money from "hidden benifactors" who dont want to be named. Red Bull adjusted fiugure includes Toro Rossos budget without the backing of the young driver programme as well.

Engine suppliers will have plenty scope in 2014 onward to recoup their money.

grano123
0
Joined: 18 Nov 2007, 18:21

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

Looking at the figures you showed, that is an absurd amount of money being spent!! Especially if you amortize it over 20 races...........almost seems unbelievable, and even more so that the teams can generate income to cover it?

Do the bigger teams all pay their mechanics hundreds of thousands of euros each!..........ha ha, I don't think so.............:)

Based on these figures, I'm now curious as to what it *really* costs for a team to operate, and how can there be such an enormous difference between them at the top and them at the bottom? Granted, staffing levels will be different, and facilities, but I am sure I read estimated staffing levels somewhere else on the forum, and if I recall for example, Williams were right up there in staff levels, not far behind McLaren and they seem to have a fairly impressive facilty, yet spend considerably less per season?

Perhaps there is alot of *creative accounting* going on in formula one?..............:)

bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

grano123 wrote:[...]

Based on these figures, I'm now curious as to what it *really* costs for a team to operate, and how can there be such an enormous difference between them at the top and them at the bottom? Granted, staffing levels will be different, and facilities, but I am sure I read estimated staffing levels somewhere else on the forum, and if I recall for example, Williams were right up there in staff levels, not far behind McLaren and they seem to have a fairly impressive facilty, yet spend considerably less per season?

Perhaps there is alot of *creative accounting* going on in formula one?..............:)
It's really quite simple: teams are going to spend all the money they possibly can in the search for that ever-elusive competitive edge. It's rumored that Red Bull brought new front wings to every race last year. If that's true, they're likely doing it again this year.

The restrictive regulations do little to control actual costs. They just direct the flow of money into increasingly esoteric areas, and they ensure that any gains are either very slight or very expensive (or often both).

thearmofbarlow
0
Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 06:43

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

bhallg2k wrote: It's really quite simple: teams are going to spend all the money they possibly can in the search for that ever-elusive competitive edge. It's rumored that Red Bull brought new front wings to every race last year. If that's true, they're likely doing it again this year.

The restrictive regulations do little to control actual costs. They just direct the flow of money into increasingly esoteric areas, and they ensure that any gains are either very slight or very expensive (or often both).
This. Harsh restrictions just mean spending more money on completely boring and uninteresting things just to eke an extra three hundredths out of a corner. Or you could spend half as much and throw a whacking great turbo on the back and be done with it.

Red Schneider
1
Joined: 17 May 2012, 22:43
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

thearmofbarlow wrote:This. Harsh restrictions just mean spending more money on completely boring and uninteresting things just to eke an extra three hundredths out of a corner. Or you could spend half as much and throw a whacking great turbo on the back and be done with it.
If you are implying that less restrictive regulations will bring down spending, you're wrong.

thearmofbarlow
0
Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 06:43

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

Red Schneider wrote: If you are implying that less restrictive regulations will bring down spending, you're wrong.
No I'm implying that things were far more interesting when it wasn't about aero tweaks and tire temps. The FIA is apocalyptic when it comes to any sort of real development to the point where there is absolutely no room for anything interesting to happen.

ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

thearmofbarlow wrote:
bhallg2k wrote: It's really quite simple: teams are going to spend all the money they possibly can in the search for that ever-elusive competitive edge. It's rumored that Red Bull brought new front wings to every race last year. If that's true, they're likely doing it again this year.

The restrictive regulations do little to control actual costs. They just direct the flow of money into increasingly esoteric areas, and they ensure that any gains are either very slight or very expensive (or often both).
This. Harsh restrictions just mean spending more money on completely boring and uninteresting things just to eke an extra three hundredths out of a corner. Or you could spend half as much and throw a whacking great turbo on the back and be done with it.
Red Bull spent an estimated €25m in R&D for a Monza specific package, and spent a similar amount for Monaco as well, the Monaco one could be used again at Singapore and Hungary. They spent €3m for each GP for a new front wing in R&D and used 6 race iterations of a rear wing and a further 3 in FP1/FP2 and Young Driver Testing as well.

In 2010 they spent €10m on R&D for a new wiring loom in order to get the F-Duct pipe thru the largest hole in the chassis bulkhead as well, just to make their version as powerful, if not more powerful than the McLaren one.

Hence why Budget Capping at Red Bull is just plain against a budgetary cap as Newey will use every available point, penny, euro, cent and dollar available in order to get that extra .050 of a second from the car.

grano123
0
Joined: 18 Nov 2007, 18:21

Re: Budget costs beyond 2012 and engines for 2014

Post

ESPImperium wrote:
thearmofbarlow wrote:
bhallg2k wrote: It's really quite simple: teams are going to spend all the money they possibly can in the search for that ever-elusive competitive edge. It's rumored that Red Bull brought new front wings to every race last year. If that's true, they're likely doing it again this year.

The restrictive regulations do little to control actual costs. They just direct the flow of money into increasingly esoteric areas, and they ensure that any gains are either very slight or very expensive (or often both).
This. Harsh restrictions just mean spending more money on completely boring and uninteresting things just to eke an extra three hundredths out of a corner. Or you could spend half as much and throw a whacking great turbo on the back and be done with it.
Red Bull spent an estimated €25m in R&D for a Monza specific package, and spent a similar amount for Monaco as well, the Monaco one could be used again at Singapore and Hungary. They spent €3m for each GP for a new front wing in R&D and used 6 race iterations of a rear wing and a further 3 in FP1/FP2 and Young Driver Testing as well.

In 2010 they spent €10m on R&D for a new wiring loom in order to get the F-Duct pipe thru the largest hole in the chassis bulkhead as well, just to make their version as powerful, if not more powerful than the McLaren one.

Hence why Budget Capping at Red Bull is just plain against a budgetary cap as Newey will use every available point, penny, euro, cent and dollar available in order to get that extra .050 of a second from the car.
Are you for real??? How can you possibly spend that kind of money to do whatever they did.............surely you could design a completely new car for that?

Where do you get those figures from anyway, kinda curious..........:) as it just seems like fantasy to me.

Post Reply