Female Drivers making the starting grid?

[FW17]

I missed this one

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cfsJw4tCak[/youtube]

[argyll]

Nice effort from Susie Wolff this weekend!

[Moxie]

I don't see whats the whole fuss about this blatantly commercial and irrelevant issue. F1 is a western driven sport and let's be clear about it: no poor, women repressing western country has a say in F1 (or at least until recently, when in name of "diversity" F1 has started to accept money from some repressing places). Women in rich, west countries are HUGELY and OBVIOUSLY and almost UNDENIABLY over privileged, over represented and a fake minority with fake problems. They are majority, they receive the same rights and those rights are damn well protected and respected. Legally and socially, women got WAY more attention, representation and protection than men in those places.

If anyone tries to say that no, there's no other way to put: misinformed and manipulated (like most "educated" western rich white and soft males, who are brainwashed to feel guilty by being male and white). Its an active, planned and admitted way of acting in those societies to have those instruments GUARANTEEING women being "more equal than men" in the name of "correcting the inequalities and injustices" towards women.

Not only women on those societies have the same rights, as a result of this process, they can not only have the same jobs and the same treatment and salary. They can also receive opportunities and incentives by legal and practical ways that men don't have access to. And they can also retain all the historical upsides of being a women while not compromising on anything, leaving the bulk of the "sexism" burden HUGELY ON MEN and not women. They retained the right to choose, the better treatment, the free access to places, the guard of the kids, the extra physical and moral protection of the society towards them while maintaining NONE of the tradeoffs of yore (like having to obey men or being second places in some parts of the society).

I'm not saying they shouldn't have equal rights and that they should be forced to accept the tradeoffs of yore. But I'm damn sure saying they have gone over the top and reached for a sexist society IN THEY BENEFIT (as opposed to the past). Difference is, they make us think this is the right way and it's beautiful and unquestionable and that this bulls*it is actual EQUALITY. At least we had the b*lls (obviously ) to admit it wasn't equal in our time.

What I want to say afterall? Well, they are not in anyway restricted to do motorsports. Legally they are not and this right is hugely protected by society and the laws. If any attempt to impede a women to compete in a racing series was made, legal action with favorable results would be flying all over. Plus, THERE IS HUGE INTEREST commercially and politically to have a women driver. US is filled with driver women who are GARBAGE in MAJOR racing series by the obvious reason that it's commercially VERY ATTRACTIVE.

So, if you have the right to do it, MUCH MORE BACK UP from sponsors and society, and a fan base of males who would probably love to see a girl racing, if you can't make it, IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT. If you suck, like most people do (and girls suck even more, let me assure you) in your driving and lap times, go do something else. Stop pulling this tiring LIE that "it was sexism" (and even racism, in a smaller scale). It's a numbers sport, you do your fast lap faster than everyone else and you have a place no matter who you are. Sponsors might be a problem though, but CERTAINLY not for women

This is all very easy to say being a white male, is it not? I'm a white male as well, but at least I am not blind.

I'm sure you are not blind, otherwise being in a forum would be difficult. But you are Swedish and white, so you have been educated (maybe more than any other group in the planet) to feel like being a men is always a privilege and women are always at disadvantage and you should feel guilty for it. And hey, don't worry, your country will welfare you to the point you think this is cool, that you live in the best country in the world, and that you are blind to the FACT your women are spoiled and over represented and this is used as a political hook

I'm also sure you have NEVER been in a racing series, even an amateur one. It's the LAPTIMES. It's all that matters in competitive racing. I've seen a lot "unprivileged" people trump over the "bigoted, rapist white male" in racing. I live in a country with a mixed population and in lower racing series I've seen with my own eyes people who where not rich, not white and not man move up the ladder (and even get sponsors!) while the "always privileged" kind got left behind. Most are indeed white, becouse most of the rich population is like this here and this is a sport where you need money to start. But those who actually make it, MUST pull the proper LAPTIME

Most are also men, not becouse of sexism, but becouse most women can't give two sh*ts about motorsport. "Social roles" you say? What's the next excuse? Social roles are not forced anymore, it's not our fault if THEY SIMPLY DO NOT WANT TO BE IN RACING

Want more girls racing? It's indifferent for me, I don't see any (ABSOLUTELY ANY) reason why there should be or there shoudn't be girls racing in F1. But this is a start: tell the western whiny, over privileged, over represented, OVER EQUALED, boring, inept, mostly skanky women population to actually be good at racing. Sponsors and seats will come! It's very simple!

Motosport is a place where political riff raff has little place, only money getting in the way of LAPTIMES. LAPTIMES are what do the talking. No one cares if you are sexist or feminist or black supremacist or KKK. If you are SLOWER you don't get in. Heck, I can't get in as in a qualy lap I'm slower than many people. Why should a girl have the OVER PRIVILEGE to make it if she is even slower?

Equal rights. You asked for it! =D>

It's the old "you can do anything if you try hard enough"-lie in denial of a certain amount of luck.

Nope, it's the old, it must be luck or some privilege or because it's a men (if white, 2 times that, and must be a racist as well). You can't do anything if you try hard enough. You are right. Luck is necessary for ANYONE and not everyone is up to some tasks. If you can't do fast laps, YOU CAN'T BE A F1 RACING DRIVER. Most women are too bad in motorsports even in lower categories. FACE IT. We, white, racist, sexist, over privileged men can't do multitasking like any average chick can do. They almost never can pull fast times like men can do. Each sex has their abilities and roles. "Constructed" social roles, prejudice and sexism are only true to some point. Fact is we are not equal, by a huge mile. It's not a problem, it's just the way it is

It's not a men/women issue only also. Black athletes have SCIENTIFICALLY proven advantages in some sports compared to the vast majority of people from other races. Asians have blatant advantage in small, precise movements compared to most of other races. Whites are usually better in sports where physical and mental endurance is more important than outright strength or ability. Women are great rational beings mostly and by nature while men are mostly on the more wishful and strong (physically) side

Not to say you can't have a great female racer, a rational and multitasking men, a strong boxing asian or a black athlete with more mental power than a physical advantage. It's just that more people of some kind have some characteristics. And when you reach a level such as F1 or Olympics, your performance is being compared to the best of the best of the best. You may be an excellent black acrobat, for instance. But will you be better than the chinese girl who is the best among a whole nation/race of excellent acrobats? YOU MAY BE! But statistically you will be one in millions or billions, so it's OBVIOUSLY natural that you will see more asian acrobats winning than any other race. It's not a conspiracy, or sexism, or prejudice, or a "social role" every f*cking time!

I cannot speak for European nations, but I can say that in the United States many of he assertions made here are incorrect. In the U.S. There is still a large political faction that does not believe in the equality of women. That political faction currently carries much weight with the legislative and judicial branches of many states as well as the Federal government. In the U.S. It is perfectly legal for a firm to discriminate against women in regards to pay. Women do not have the right to make certain health care decisions for themselves. It goes so far that a certain political commentator, a woman herself, has publicly stated that women should not be allowed to vote. Other political commentators have taken to referring to women as "sluts" and "prostitutes" in regards to a large range of topics.

To look at a micro-environment such as sports car racing and to believe that sexism does not exist, without taking an accurate look at the macro-environment is incorrect. The same is true for racism.

If you wish to discuss "SCIENTIFICALLY proven advantages" then by all means provide a reference, and we can discuss the strengths and shortcomings of the studies.

As a former molecular biologist I can affirm that there are certain genetic attributes that are associated with different genetic backgrounds. Probably the most notable example of this is that people of African descent are more likely to carry a type of hemoglobin which makes them less susceptible to malaria, but at the same time makes them more susceptible to sicle cell anemia. This type of biochemical minutiae, however, is a far cry, from proving any race has an advantage in a given sport.

I politely suggest that you take care when presenting these types of arguments because they fall apart quickly, and tend to say more about the individual making the argument than they do about the topic at hand.

[JimClarkFan]

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

[beelsebob]

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

If they get there on the same "merit" as most male drivers do (i.e. piles of cash and sponsorship) I have no idea why you would find it repulsive.

[Moxie]

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

I agree with you on principle, but to be realistic it is a rare driver that gets a ride purely because of driving ability. So many drivers over the years got their F1 rides because of cash and connections, I am sure we could generate quite a list. Even Niki Lauda bought his way onto the BRM team. That genie will not be put back into the bottle. Why criticize a female driver just because she is obligated to play the same financial and political game as her male counterparts?

[JimClarkFan]

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

If they get there on the same "merit" as most male drivers do (i.e. piles of cash and sponsorship) I have no idea why you would find it repulsive.

Where have I implied that there is a difference?

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

I agree with you on principle, but to be realistic it is a rare driver that gets a ride purely because of driving ability. So many drivers over the years got their F1 rides because of cash and connections, I am sure we could generate quite a list. Even Niki Lauda bought his way onto the BRM team. That genie will not be put back into the bottle. Why criticize a female driver just because she is obligated to play the same financial and political game as her male counterparts?

Because she isn't fast.

Pay drivers like Michael Schumacher didn't get into F1 just because he bought his way into Jordon, nor did Niki get a drive just because he had money, or Alonso to Minardi.

I have looked at her career, there is not one single season where she has stood out as being exceptional. There is nothing in her history which says she is fit for F1.

Formula 1 is supposed to be the cream, and she doesn't cut it. Others who I feel should not be there include Chilton - though he arguably has a much better CV than Wolf relative to his years. Drivers with no body of proof that they can cut it in the lower leagues of motorsport should not be in F1.

Edit - to clarify, I'm referring to susie wolf

[beelsebob]

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

If they get there on the same "merit" as most male drivers do (i.e. piles of cash and sponsorship) I have no idea why you would find it repulsive.

Where have I implied that there is a difference?

When you posted this on a thread specifically about female drivers.

[JimClarkFan]

When you posted this on a thread specifically about female drivers.

So the fact that I clarified exactly what I meant in my post doesn't matter? Do you have anything better to do other than nit pick?

Let me re-quote myself:

''However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.''

[stewilkinson]

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

If they get there on the same "merit" as most male drivers do (i.e. piles of cash and sponsorship) I have no idea why you would find it repulsive.

Where have I implied that there is a difference?

If there are female drivers capable of making it into formula 1 great.

However, if a female driver gets into the sport on anything other than merit, then I find the whole thing a bit repulsive - fully aware of a similar precedence with pay drivers.

And I'm afraid to say, I don't think Susie Wolf is here on merit, though I wish her the best.

I agree with you on principle, but to be realistic it is a rare driver that gets a ride purely because of driving ability. So many drivers over the years got their F1 rides because of cash and connections, I am sure we could generate quite a list. Even Niki Lauda bought his way onto the BRM team. That genie will not be put back into the bottle. Why criticize a female driver just because she is obligated to play the same financial and political game as her male counterparts?

Because she isn't fast.

Pay drivers like Michael Schumacher didn't get into F1 just because he bought his way into Jordon, nor did Niki get a drive just because he had money, or Alonso to Minardi.

I have looked at her career, there is not one single season where she has stood out as being exceptional. There is nothing in her history which says she is fit for F1.

Formula 1 is supposed to be the cream, and she doesn't cut it. Others who I feel should not be there include Chilton - though he arguably has a much better CV than Wolf relative to his years. Drivers with no body of proof that they can cut it in the lower leagues of motorsport should not be in F1.

Edit - to clarify, I'm referring to susie wolf

Well, technically Niki took a loan out, secured against a large life insurance policy he had that common folk could only dream of, to pave his way into F1 :p

[Cold Fussion]

We can all agree that Formula 1 should be a meritocracy, however this is unfortunately utopian fantasy. Motor racing at any level is an expensive exercise, and this money has to come from somewhere. Ultimately I see very little difference between a woman being in F1 because she is a woman, and that of a pay driver being in F1 because they bring in x amount of millions.

[countersteer]

In the U.S. There is still a large political faction that does not believe in the equality of women. That political faction currently carries much weight with the legislative and judicial branches of many states as well as the Federal government. In the U.S. It is perfectly legal for a firm to discriminate against women in regards to pay. Women do not have the right to make certain health care decisions for themselves. It goes so far that a certain political commentator, a woman herself, has publicly stated that women should not be allowed to vote. Other political commentators have taken to referring to women as "sluts" and "prostitutes" in regards to a large range of topics.

You are very much perpetuating a myth. You've been lied to, repeatedly. Might I suggest, "The Myth of Male Power" by Dr. Warren Farrell. It may open your eyes to a few things.

Granted none of this part of the discussion has anything to do with F1 but I can't let this pass.

[henry]

Women compete with, and beat, men in Three Day Eventing ( a type of horse riding competition for those who don't know). It has many similar requirements to F1. Strength, endurance, balance, hand eye coordination, technical appreciation, fearlessness ( more risk of injury than F1) and access to the best, and very expensive, equipment and support facilities.

A difference from F1 is that at a young age many more girls from suitable backgrounds seem to favour horses over karts. Maybe that plays a part.