If Vettel performs poorly this year... what will that mean?

[henra]

There's no good argument to be made that Ricciardo is in any way the second coming of Christ.

Agreed.
Although I think he's got Talent.

Instead, the question that should be asked if Ricciardo manages to beat Vettel is simply "wow, how good were those RedBulls, and how bad had webber got?"

Disagree.
It might not be that simplistic. I don't think Webber was really a bad Driver.
The behaviour of the EBD RB's probably perfectly matched Vettel's style and allowed him to extract possibly more from that car than any other Driver might have been able to.
I wouldn't have been surprised if he had bettered Alonso if both were driving an EBD RB.
But he seems to struggle more than, say Alonso if the car is not perfect.
Mark Webber was more of an Allrounder. Able to drive a mediocre car well (when the EBD wasn't working right initially on the RB8 he could deal with that better than Vettel) but not able to exploit the capabilities of the old RB's. I rate Alonso as the best of the Allrounders - by a margin.
In a top car with copius grip on the other Hand he might be slightly slower than Vettel or Hamilton at least over one lap. In raw Speed in a perfect machine, suiting their style I still rate Hamilton and Vettel as the best. That said, Hamilton seems to be able to deal with a mediocre car better than Vettel. But still not as good as Alonso. The latter is the real master of getting Points out of a so-so car.
From my point of view it is not so easy to nominate the best Driver. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. It's the combination of these with the properties of the car that leads ro a certain result.
My conclusion: Vettel is not good in driving around weaknesses of a car but he seems to bet excellent in getting the max out of a stable and predictable car.

[beelsebob]

Honestly, I think the whole "able to drive an EBD car well" thing is a red herring. I mean, it probably did match his style to a certain extent, but I don't think that's where his pace against webber came from. I think it's simply a case of Webber getting somewhat past it, and also mentally down. I think after 2010, Webber thought "well, that was pretty much my only chance to win the WDC, and I blew it", and never really recovered his pace.

[turbof1]

There's no good argument to be made that Ricciardo is in any way the second coming of Christ.

Agreed.
Although I think he's got Talent.

Instead, the question that should be asked if Ricciardo manages to beat Vettel is simply "wow, how good were those RedBulls, and how bad had webber got?"

Disagree.
It might not be that simplistic. I don't think Webber was really a bad Driver.
The behaviour of the EBD RB's probably perfectly matched Vettel's style and allowed him to extract possibly more from that car than any other Driver might have been able to.
I wouldn't have been surprised if he had bettered Alonso if both were driving an EBD RB.
But he seems to struggle more than, say Alonso if the car is not perfect.
Mark Webber was more of an Allrounder. Able to drive a mediocre car well (when the EBD wasn't working right on the RB he could deal with that better than Vettel) but not able to exploit the capabilities of the old RB's. I rate Alonso as the best of the Allrounders - by a margin.
In a top car with copius grip on the other Hand he might be slightly slower than Vettel or Hamilton at least over one lap. In raw Speed in a perfect machine, suiting their style I still rate Hamilton and Vettel as the best. That said, Hamilton seems to be able to deal with a mediocre car better than Vettel. But still not as good as Alonso. The latter is the real master of getting Points out of a so-so car.
From my point of view it is not so easy to nominate the best Driver. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. It's the combination of these with the properties of the car that leads ro a certain result.
My conclusion: Vettel is not good in driving around weaknesses of a car but he seems to bet excellent in getting the max out of a stable and predictable car.

Going from this, what do you guys think Vettel could do from here? Hamilton in the past was more agressive and wild, but nowadays he seems to have evolved into a more complete and collected driver. In my eyes Hamilton has become a MUCH better driver then he was when he won the 2008 championship. It's evident because nowadays when he wins a race he inmediately looks for ways to improve. Winning isn't enough anymore; finding ways to keep improving is his ethos now.

I think this is Vettel's chance to do the same: to learn to cope with a difficult car and to improve himself upon that.

I feel the evolution he'll make throughout the season, will tell how truly great he is. The best f1 drivers are the ones that can adapt the best to new situations.

[FrukostScones]

Honestly, I think the whole "able to drive an EBD car well" thing is a red herring. I mean, it probably did match his style to a certain extent, but I don't think that's where his pace against webber came from. I think it's simply a case of Webber getting somewhat past it, and also mentally down. I think after 2010, Webber thought "well, that was pretty much my only chance to win the WDC, and I blew it", and never really recovered his pace.

yes, and as VET became a father this year he lost half a second of his pace... mystery solved.

[FoxHound]

I'm not Vettel's greatest fan, but this could be very much car related in terms of how he utilises it.
Ricciardo had 2/3 seasons in a lesser car with far less rear DF.
He is accustomed to that rear end squirming. Vettel will need a mammoth change to adjust as he has had the luxury of a planted car for 4 years.

And to Vettel's credit, he is taking it all on the chin. No blaming the car, he is given Ricciardo his due.
For that, he goes up in my estimation.

[Redragon]

Apart of the changes on the rules, car, etc...
There is something else that might make him be slower on the learning process and not be as much agressive as he has been on the past and that is:

Been Father for the first time over Christmas.

Sometimes people forget what it is happening outside of the racing lifes. And in this case it might be affecting his mental preparation. Too many things to adapt at the moment. I am sure he would be back soon on the top.

[lebesset]

There's no good argument to be made that Ricciardo is in any way the second coming of Christ.

Agreed.
Although I think he's got Talent.

Instead, the question that should be asked if Ricciardo manages to beat Vettel is simply "wow, how good were those RedBulls, and how bad had webber got?"

Disagree.
It might not be that simplistic. I don't think Webber was really a bad Driver.
The behaviour of the EBD RB's probably perfectly matched Vettel's style and allowed him to extract possibly more from that car than any other Driver might have been able to.
I wouldn't have been surprised if he had bettered Alonso if both were driving an EBD RB.
But he seems to struggle more than, say Alonso if the car is not perfect.
Mark Webber was more of an Allrounder. Able to drive a mediocre car well (when the EBD wasn't working right on the RB he could deal with that better than Vettel) but not able to exploit the capabilities of the old RB's. I rate Alonso as the best of the Allrounders - by a margin.
In a top car with copius grip on the other Hand he might be slightly slower than Vettel or Hamilton at least over one lap. In raw Speed in a perfect machine, suiting their style I still rate Hamilton and Vettel as the best. That said, Hamilton seems to be able to deal with a mediocre car better than Vettel. But still not as good as Alonso. The latter is the real master of getting Points out of a so-so car.
From my point of view it is not so easy to nominate the best Driver. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. It's the combination of these with the properties of the car that leads ro a certain result.
My conclusion: Vettel is not good in driving around weaknesses of a car but he seems to bet excellent in getting the max out of a stable and predictable car.

Going from this, what do you guys think Vettel could do from here? Hamilton in the past was more agressive and wild, but nowadays he seems to have evolved into a more complete and collected driver. In my eyes Hamilton has become a MUCH better driver then he was when he won the 2008 championship. It's evident because nowadays when he wins a race he inmediately looks for ways to improve. Winning isn't enough anymore; finding ways to keep improving is his ethos now.

I think this is Vettel's chance to do the same: to learn to cope with a difficult car and to improve himself upon that.

I feel the evolution he'll make throughout the season, will tell how truly great he is. The best f1 drivers are the ones that can adapt the best to new situations.

I buy that ; hamilton came into F1 having won everything through sheer talent in spec series ; has had to learn that you can't win all the time and he has learned to take the knocks ; having followed F1 for a VERY long time my opinion is that hamilton is the most talented driver since jimmy clark , may end up just as good , as well as the fastest ...just like jimmy , the only driver I know of who every single one of his competitors thought was in a class of his own

maybe vettel could get to that level ...who knows , let's see
but for sure he ain't there yet

[Joie de vivre]

It pissed me off every time I heard Vettel is the best driver in the world ... no, hes not.

Thanks to RedBull insane downforce advantage he was able to win those 4 titles.

For me I think Hamilton and Alonso are currently the best out there.
Vettel is on the same level as Ricciardo, Kimi, Hulkenberg and Rosberg.

Vettel is overrated and can only deliver when having huge advantage. This year no blowing diffs and much bigger torque which he cannot handle.

And this is by no means a diss against him. Hes good driver but far from best.

[zeph]

And to Vettel's credit, he is taking it all on the chin. No blaming the car, he is given Ricciardo his due.
For that, he goes up in my estimation.

Same here. I respect him for that.

[myurr]

And to Vettel's credit, he is taking it all on the chin. No blaming the car, he is given Ricciardo his due.
For that, he goes up in my estimation.

Same here. I respect him for that.

We had excuses in each of the previous races - engine down on power, problems with downshifts, etc. This is the first race he's simply admitted Ricciardo is doing a better job.

[Gerhard Berger]

Vettel is on the same level as Ricciardo

Not on the evidence of the season so far

[Mandrake]

And to Vettel's credit, he is taking it all on the chin. No blaming the car, he is given Ricciardo his due.
For that, he goes up in my estimation.

Same here. I respect him for that.

We had excuses in each of the previous races - engine down on power, problems with downshifts, etc. This is the first race he's simply admitted Ricciardo is doing a better job.

Actually, most of those comments did not immediately come from him directly, but from the team as well. And he never stood there telling if the car had not had the prob I would have been on pole. Also, all those problems were actually there...

Been Father for the first time over Christmas.

Sometimes people forget what it is happening outside of the racing lifes. And in this case it might be affecting his mental preparation. Too many things to adapt at the moment. I am sure he would be back soon on the top.

I had put that up on the first page or so. It does certainly change drivers. Grosjean went from crash kid to seriously good driver, Schumacher also got less agressive, still being very fast.

For Vettel I believe it is no fun driving the RedBull atm, coming from the last 4 years. But he has something he is happy about outside the race track, so he might be not trying as hard to be back up there as he would without his child.

[chip engineer]

...
For Vettel I believe it is no fun driving the RedBull atm, coming from the last 4 years. But he has something he is happy about outside the race track, so he might be not trying as hard to be back up there as he would without his child.

Vettel did seem content to let his teammate do the majority of preseason testing this year. Also, he apparently left the track on days he was not testing. Did he do that in previous years?

[FoxHound]

Nothing major was gained from testing regards mileage other than they had a truck load of problems with the power unit and the energy recovery systems.

[Cam]

If Vettel performs poorly this year… what will that mean?
Simple, the stars simply did not align. How so?

First let’s remove the ‘character’ of Vettel that some keep calling into question. Why? Is Vettel’s actions any different to Schumacher taking out Hill in 94 to win his first WDC, what about Senna in 90, or Prost in 89? Or how about Alonso being found guilty of cheating in 07 but was spared punishment by becoming a dibber dobber? If we’re going to call a drivers character to account, then we must look at all the drivers and measure with the same stick. In doing so, Vettel’s actions seem not so different to the other greats, do they?

So that leaves driving ability. Before going into detail of the Vettel/Red Bull dynamic, I want to remind everyone of one particular drive. Brazil 2012. This defined Vettel as one of the all time great drivers for me. To be dead last on lap one, with very badly damaged car, a teammate who gave no assistance, he had to not only catch the pack, but overtake most of them to win the WDC. That race was one of the greatest I’ve ever seen and regardless of anything else, it showed us all just what Vettel could do under adversity.

Apart form that one race, what about the 4 defining years? Red Bull served up a very specific car for it’s drivers. Usually slowest on the straights, but fastest in the corners. To capitalise, you must qualify on the front row, lead into the first corner, build a gap to avoid DRS, then manage the gap to the flag. For 4 years Vettel did exactly what was required, with the equipment he was supplied. The regulations, the engine, the designers, the engineers, the tyres, the driver - the stars aligned.

Now we have Hamilton & Mercedes. After the last 5 years of, 5th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 4th, this does not mean Hamilton was any ‘worse’ in the previous years. Nor does it make him any ‘better’ this year. The regulations, the engine, the designers, the engineers, the tyres, the driver - the stars are aligning.

If Vettel performs poorly this year… what will that mean?
Simple, the stars simply did not align. This is why every WDC is special, no matter what car you’re in.