Driver Excuses

[turbof1]

Hamilton is in a similar state of mind, saying he never felt happier then now. I definitely can understand the feeling; since. 2009 he never really had a dominant car and always had to fight for his results. The exception might be in 2012, but back then the car and team failed him at several occasions.

Currently he has a dominant and (relative) reliable car. After years of strugling Hamilton gets the feeling of satisfaction.

[zonk]

Although Ricciardo has impressed his team since stepping in to the seat vacated by Mark Webber, Red Bull boss Christian Horner has revealed that Vettel is having problems with the RB10.

"I think that Sebastian is having a tough time at the moment because he hasn't got that feeling from the car that he is looking for," said Horner.

"He is tremendously sensitive to certain aspects of the set-up, and he is not getting the feedback from the car he wants.

"The compound effect of that is that he is damaging the tyre more, which is very unusual for Seb.

"We have seen since Pirellis have been introduced [in 2011], that it is highly unusual for him to be going through the tyre life quicker than the average.

"I think that is just a culmination of the issues that he has currently. But as soon as he has worked them out, he will be back with a bang."

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113597

[JimClarkFan]

Although Ricciardo has impressed his team since stepping in to the seat vacated by Mark Webber, Red Bull boss Christian Horner has revealed that Vettel is having problems with the RB10.

"I think that Sebastian is having a tough time at the moment because he hasn't got that feeling from the car that he is looking for," said Horner.

"He is tremendously sensitive to certain aspects of the set-up, and he is not getting the feedback from the car he wants.

"The compound effect of that is that he is damaging the tyre more, which is very unusual for Seb.

"We have seen since Pirellis have been introduced [in 2011], that it is highly unusual for him to be going through the tyre life quicker than the average.

"I think that is just a culmination of the issues that he has currently. But as soon as he has worked them out, he will be back with a bang."

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113597

But who ever has a perfect car.

All this talk about feeling the car, feeling the fronts/rear/tyres/downforce/traction in Jensons case ( ), the steering wheel for kimi, brakes for lewis, now this for Vettel. What does it really mean.

To me it all seems relative because...

When you are out front in a car much faster than the rest of the field you don't really have to find the limit because the car will do whatever you want. In those situations car or driver weaknesses aren't really exposed.

However when you are the middle of the pack, you need to push the limits of the car and because of this surely you can't expect to have the same feel or get the feedback you like from the car. Driving on the limit, by its very nature, would mean that feel and feedback are compromised?

Ultimately feel in this case comes down to two things, car not suited to your driving style, or a driving style unsuited to the car meaning that in part you lack some of the skill necessary to eek out those extra 10ths when driving right on the limits.

Is that how other people would read that situation?

[tkulla]

Whether we consider what a driver says to be an "excuse" or technical insight depends a lot of our view of that driver. And the perceptions are often formed early in a drivers career and is unlikely to change. I posted an alternate-universe look at Jenson Button's career over on Autosport a while back. Give it a look to see how a small change could move us to view a driver very differently...

"I find it amusing how perception works when it comes to drivers. Take Hulkenberg, for instance. Right now he's viewed as a can't miss driver and everyone is scratching their heads wondering how he hasn't found his way into a top car, yet there are some who are looking at a driver like Jenson and wondering when he'll retire. Take the names and ages away though while looking at last year and Jenson was the best of the midfield lot (yes, the McLaren was a midfield car last year, and not the best one either) when it comes to points. The name of the game is scoring points, and Jenson is one of the very best of it.

It's funny, but I think his reputation suffers from those Bennetton years, especially 2001. He came into the sport at 20 and with just a season of F3 behind him so he really had to learn his craft and grow up all at the same time, in an era when drivers didn't make it to F1 at this age. Getting dropped by Flavio in favor of Alonso (for reasons other than performance, I might add) seemed to have damaged his reputation to the degree that he's not considered a "special" driver. But imagine that he had been brought into the sport slowly like Alonso (a year at MIndardi and then a year testing) and we might think about him very differently.

Let's pretend for a minute that his career started as a 23 year old in 2003 with BAR. Nobody knows anything about him really, except maybe that he had won the F3000 title the year before or something). This is what his career would look like:

2003 - Outpoints WDC Villeneuve in his rookie season 12-6. A star is born. (Sound familiar?)
2004 - In a year of utter Ferrari domination manages 10 podiums and is best of the rest, beating out fellow young sensation Alonso 88-59 and dominating his teammate (Sato).
2005 - A down year for a troubled BAR, but Button again dominates his teammate in points (38-1) as rival Alonso wins championship.
2006 - A hungry Barrichello arrives at Honda from Ferrari, but Button sees him off easily (56-30) and seals his first win as Alonso takes home his 2nd WDC.
2007 & 2008 - In the desert with awful Honda cars - the British press is outraged that a great young talent it being wasted.
2009 - It all comes good as Button finally wins the WDC in the Brawn despite the team being too cash strapped to develop the car at all.
2010 - The British press is in a frenzy as its two great champs drive side by side for McLaren, with Lewis edging Jenson.
2011 - Jenson turns the tables on Lewis and finishes 2nd in the championship to the dominant Red Bull of Vettel.
2012 - Lewis fights back to take a 2-1 season lead before leaving for Mercedes, but Jenson scored more points overall in the three years.
2013 - McLaren produces a bad car, but Jenson easily handles another new teammate in Sergio Perez.
2014 - ???

It's all the same as what really happened, but our perception would be very different. He has outscored every teammate he's had since 2002 (including Trulli), but somehow there's this odd notion that he's missing something.

[sennaf1god.94]

It's all the same as what really happened, but our perception would be very different. He has outscored every teammate he's had since 2002 (including Trulli), but somehow there's this odd notion that he's missing something.

That notion comes from 2001... when he was destroyed by Fisichella. The same driver that destroyed Sato at Jordan, and would had been WDC given the superior BAR/Honda car of 2004.

And that coming from a McLaren (hard) fan that personally congrated him for his 2011 stonishing season, while onboard a McLaren Mp4/12C GT3 car...

[Edax]

But who ever has a perfect car.

All this talk about feeling the car, feeling the fronts/rear/tyres/downforce/traction in Jensons case ( ), the steering wheel for kimi, brakes for lewis, now this for Vettel. What does it really mean.

[snip]

Is that how other people would read that situation?

I can fully understand how some drivers have problems with a new platform. I think it is a legitimate excuse. However they are professional drivers and should go fast through the process of setting up the car and adapting their driving style.

I do wonder though. With the current test format, the drivers get very little time with the car. Especially the renault teams have done very little running, and most of it is commited to development.

So if the problems didn't reproduce well in the simulator, how much time did for instance Vettel really have to sort out these problems?

Would Hamilton be complaining about the brakes for half a season back in the 80's, when they would just rent a track for a weekend to sort it out.

Just a thought.

[Jersey Tom]

The POINT of the discussion should be that back in the last Ice Age, when I was young, a driver was expected to adapt to the car and not the other way around.

Was that by choice, in that these were brave burly men "back in the day" or was it because the cars were such simple little things that you had no adjustments to even try? No simulation tools, no aero data, no tire data, no seven posts, no driver adjustable ARB's (hardly any ARB choices at all if I'm correct), doubt even driver adjustable brake bias, no e-diff, etc etc etc. if they had them, they would have used them.

To me it's pretty simple. Racecar is two things, a mechanical thing and an organic thing. You need to get the combination of the two around the track as fast as possible. The pile of meat grabbing the steering wheel.. pretty much is what it is. Might be able to coach them up a bit but Pastor Maldonado isn't going to turn into Ayrton Senna overnight. The car.. you can swap springs and bars and dampers and all this easily. A race team.. with how much is at stake.. would be insane to not try to do everything possible to win a race.

Does that mean making the driver comfortable? Of course! Why would you want to intentionally make the car any more difficult to drive than it is? Less fatigue, more driver focus, better results. I sure wouldn't want to race engineer a driver who says, "Nah nah nah, don't touch the car, I wanna wrestle 'er around this place sideways every corner." By all means tell me everything that can make the driver+car package go faster.

You're here to score WDC points, not "driver bravado + style" points.

[AlainFrost]

Whether we consider what a driver says to be an "excuse" or technical insight depends a lot of our view of that driver. And the perceptions are often formed early in a drivers career and is unlikely to change. I posted an alternate-universe look at Jenson Button's career over on Autosport a while back. Give it a look to see how a small change could move us to view a driver very differently...


......

It's all the same as what really happened, but our perception would be very different. He has outscored every teammate he's had since 2002 (including Trulli), but somehow there's this odd notion that he's missing something.

I do think Jenson is a very good driver and as you correctly said, a great points scorer.

In his earlier years he was competing with and beating drivers far more experienced than him and this is where a lot of my respect for a driver comes from.

Beating Perez, a pup that wasn't even born when Jenson started F1 is not considered a great accomplishment IMO.
Just about out pointing Hamilton over three years when he has driven in over double the races and has many more years experience is again not that special but this is my opinion, not that of the press or bias publications. This is also taking into account Hamiltons awful luck during some of that period.

All drivers have excuses, it is just harder to see it when your favourite driver is the one doing it. Button was called "no grip" by a number of British fans because that's all he pretty much said and moaned about on the radio all race weekend, even when Lewis was putting his McLaren on the front row. Even this week in the press many comments on his lack of pace is condemned as excuses.

I would like to see Button in a competitive car again but that is up to McLaren as I doubt any of the other big teams will get him at his age. Time will tell.

I believed Lewis very likely learned a lot from him at McLaren.

[mnmracer]

The POINT of the discussion should be that back in the last Ice Age, when I was young, a driver was expected to adapt to the car and not the other way around.

Even in those rose-colored glasses days, it took drivers time to adapt. Since the testing ban(s) in 2003, new drivers and experienced drivers in new situations (teams, regulations) take on average between 5 and 7 races to perfectly adapt. 4 races in is simply too early to draw any conclusions.

Besides that, too much is made of drivers saying they're not yet happy or whatever. As long as they perform, it doesn't matter how happy or unhappy you are with the car you're driving.

[timbo]

The POINT of the discussion should be that back in the last Ice Age, when I was young, a driver was expected to adapt to the car and not the other way around.

Still in the prehistoric days some got a better feeling for a particular car than others. It is often said that Rosemeier flourished in the Auto Union because he was a motorcycle racer, so he didn't had predisposition for the "correct" car behavior of the time.
Anyway, I'd like to defend the current generation of drivers. I believe I said that a few times in a various threads, but IMO the demands for the driver performance are much higher at the moment. Patrese was mentioned here, who indeed was thrashed by Mansell in 1992, but still he got a drive at Benetton! Now even rookie is expected to be withing a second to his teammate immediately.
The progress in car build quality and reliability goes hand in hand with what teams demand from drivers and what drivers demand from the cars themselves.

[MOWOG]

I have learned from this discussion and as a result, my point of view has softened somewhat. What Timbo says about Rosemeier is a good illustration.

John Surtees was a pretty fair racer of both bikes and automobiles. Mike Hailwood was awesome as a motorcycle pilot but not competitive in cars. Valentino Rossi took a sniff at driving for Ferrari once, but found the byzantine nature if F1 politics and regulation not to his liking. It would have been interesting to see how "The Doctor" fared in a race car.

It must be said that the synergy between man and machine has been crucial to successful racing since the beginning. Some drivers can adapt to changes and some cannot. Very few of the Indy drivers who drove the big front engine Offenhauser machines around the Brickyard made the transition to the rear engine cars that Colin Chapman introduced them to.

I tend to think that some of the young drivers, like Danny The Fiat, are doing well this year because they never got used to cars like those used in 2013. So they came into this season with no previous experience and no bad habits to unlearn.

And so, I have to admit that some of my positions on this subject were a little harsh. Yet I note that Red Bull has just announced they are building a new chassis for Vettel because there MUST be something wrong with his current 2014 car. A 4 time WDC just cannot be outpaced by an upstart like Riccardo. It's not possible. Now last year, Lotus gave Grosjean a new chassis and it did wonders for the balance of his season.

Will the same thing happen to Vettel? Or is the "there's something wrong with the chassis" just an excuse?

[JimClarkFan]

I have learned from this discussion and as a result, my point of view has softened somewhat. What Timbo says about Rosemeier is a good illustration.

John Surtees was a pretty fair racer of both bikes and automobiles. Mike Hailwood was awesome as a motorcycle pilot but not competitive in cars. Valentino Rossi took a sniff at driving for Ferrari once, but found the byzantine nature if F1 politics and regulation not to his liking. It would have been interesting to see how "The Doctor" fared in a race car.

It must be said that the synergy between man and machine has been crucial to successful racing since the beginning. Some drivers can adapt to changes and some cannot. Very few of the Indy drivers who drove the big front engine Offenhauser machines around the Brickyard made the transition to the rear engine cars that Colin Chapman introduced them to.

I tend to think that some of the young drivers, like Danny The Fiat, are doing well this year because they never got used to cars like those used in 2013. So they came into this season with no previous experience and no bad habits to unlearn.

And so, I have to admit that some of my positions on this subject were a little harsh. Yet I note that Red Bull has just announced they are building a new chassis for Vettel because there MUST be something wrong with his current 2014 car. A 4 time WDC just cannot be outpaced by an upstart like Riccardo. It's not possible. Now last year, Lotus gave Grosjean a new chassis and it did wonders for the balance of his season.

Will the same thing happen to Vettel? Or is the "there's something wrong with the chassis" just an excuse?

I think I have learned a bit too. See, good open discussion on these topics iron out views, when you are always in the company of like minded people you all think the same and can't envisage another persons point of view, the wonderful thing about friendly discussion is that it challenges your own beliefs and those open minded enough can adapt.

Anyway, regarding Vettel and the new car. Firstly, I didn't know this, and secondly I find it hard to believe there is something wrong with the chasis when he is in an identical car to Ricciardo. We will see though.

[Jersey Tom]

It must be said that the synergy between man and machine has been crucial to successful racing since the beginning. Some drivers can adapt to changes and some cannot.

I just think we need to be more realistic than romantic about "drivers in the glory days." Or even drivers now.. yes, of course, some will be better than others with changing their line and inputs to get the most out of a car. But there's a limit. There's no magic. No driver can take 'Car X' and just will it into being a rocketship. Guys like FA and SV have shown that quite clearly.

[marcush.]

ah ..how many times has the perfect car detoriated from magnificent and best i have ever driven to garbage and undriveable....sometimes without even turning a wrench or touching the damn Thing...
As you push harder and try to wring more out of the package (as someone else has beaten your time..!) you Need to explore Areas were neither you the Driver nor the machine feel confident and comfortable ..
To say a Driver has to adapt and find the Adaption within himself is in my view true for the time when no changes can be performed anymore -when you are stuck with the Settings and bits you have decided to take on qualy ,or your next race stint.

In the runup to a season or in preparation for a race or Weekend it sure does not make any sense to try and adapt yourself when the car is not where you feel it should be .
Where is the Point of trying to adapt to a non fitting shoe when there is the next size available readily in the shelf and having to Nurse your crumpled feet everytime you happen to have used These shoes...distracting you from performing at your best potential...

As for the very best being able to drag the machine further than any other Driver...I believe it´s not only the car but the whole Team which can .My gut Feeling is a Marrussia or Caterham may perform a notch or two better in the Hands of team RedBull or Ferrari -don´t you thinke so? It would not win of course but so does RB10 and F14t for that matter ...

[mnmracer]

Yet I note that Red Bull has just announced they are building a new chassis for Vettel because there MUST be something wrong with his current 2014 car. A 4 time WDC just cannot be outpaced by an upstart like Riccardo. It's not possible. Now last year, Lotus gave Grosjean a new chassis and it did wonders for the balance of his season.

Will the same thing happen to Vettel? Or is the "there's something wrong with the chassis" just an excuse?

The apparent situation with Vettel is exaggerated by mechanical issues (aside from the chassis). Australia is no comparison; in Malaysia he was 13 seconds clear before Ricciardo's problems. In Bahrain, both in qualifying and in the race, he was well ahead until mechanical issues hit. Vettel may not be perfectly happy with the car (plenty of drivers aren't at times), but China is the first time Ricciardo beat Vettel on performance this season. If you consider the context, there's nothing strange about what's happening.