Adrian Newey on Senna's death

[turbof1]

Today Newey made some confessions about Ayrton's death to AMuS. As part of an ongoing series where several F1 celebrities talk about Senna, Newey made some very interesting comments (warning: written in german):

Die Seitenkästen waren zu lang. Dadurch riss beim Eintauchen des Autos vorne der Luftstrom im Diffusor ab, weil das vordere Ende der Seitenkästen der Strecke zu nah kam. Aus heutiger Sicht hört sich das lächerlich an, aber wir hatten damals noch nicht die Werkzeuge, um das Problem vorher im Windkanal zu erkennen."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 13172.html

Further in the article, this whole paragraph sheds some more light:

"Was genau passierte, weiß ich nicht, obwohl es vor Gericht immer wieder durchgekaut wurde. Unser Auto hatte eine Servolenkung. Das Lenkmoment wurde über Sensoren in den Druckstreben der Vorderachse und nicht über einen Positionssensor gemessen. Von den Daten, die wir nach dem Unfall aus den beiden beschädigten Elektronikboxen noch retten konnten, haben wir folgendes gesehen: Das Lenkmoment zeigte plötzlich Ausschläge."

"Diese Daten könnte man noch als einen Bruch der Lenksäule deuten. Aber Ayrton blieb noch für eine halbe Sekunde voll auf dem Gas, reduzierte dann auf 50 Prozent, um schließlich ganz vom Gas zu gehen und zu bremsen. Die Logik sagt, dass er bei einem Lenkungsbruch sofort eine Vollbremsung eingeleitet hätte."

"Wenn man sich die Aufnahmen der Bordkamera von Schumacher anschaut, sieht man, dass das Heck unseres Autos ausbricht, Ayrton korrigiert kurz und fängt sich dann einen Highsider ein - das ist jetzt meine Theorie. So wie in den Ovalen in den USA. Das Auto biegt dann in die andere Richtung ab."

"Warum das in der zweiten Runde nach dem Safety-Car so passiert ist und nicht in der ersten? Die Reifendrücke waren noch niedrig, aber es sollte theoretisch leichter gewesen sein als in der ersten Runde nach dem Safety-Car. Schumacher hatte berichtet, dass Ayrton schon in der Runde davor fast abgeflogen wäre. Vielleicht hatte er auch einen schleichenden Plattfuß in einem der rechten Reifen. Das ließ sich hinterher nicht feststellen, weil beide Räder total zerstört waren."

For the record, the article it only a small piece in the series, with 7 other articles also very worthy to read.

[beelsebob]

(Google) translated into english for those that don't know german:

The side boxes were too long. Characterized crack upon immersion of the car in front of the air flow in the diffuser from, because the front end of the track side boxes were too close. From today's perspective, that sounds ridiculous, but we did not then have the tools to be seen in the wind tunnel the problem before. "

"What exactly happened, I do not know , though it has been chewed over and over again in court. Our car had a power steering. , The steering torque was measured via sensors in the struts of the front axle and does not have a position sensor. Among the data that we after the accident from the two damaged electronic boxes could still be saved , we saw the following: The steering torque suddenly showed rashes " .

"These data could still be interpreted as a fraction of the steering column . But Ayrton remained for half a second fully on the gas , then reduced to 50 percent , to finally go completely off the accelerator and brake. Logic says that he at would have a steering breakage initiated an emergency stop immediately. "

" When the shots of the onboard camera of Schumacher you look , you can see that the rear of our car breaks , Ayrton corrected shortly and then catches himself a highside a - . This is my theory, just as in the ovals in the U.S. The car . then turns off in the other direction . "

" Why this happened on the second lap after the safety car so and were still low not in the first ? Tire pressures , but it should have been theoretically easier than in the first round after the safety car . Schumacher had reported that Ayrton would almost went off already in the round before. Perhaps he also had a slow puncture in one of the right tire . This could be behind not notice because both wheels were totally destroyed. "

[neilbah]

Senna was great..

but not infallible. Its entirely possible that a combination of events :

line in corner
surface bumps
cold tires or a ride height issue
the general handling of the car
and even driver error dare i say caused his accident. We will never know for sure.

[Tim.Wright]

Funny... I was just thinking about this today and had the same thought that Newey mentioned. If the steering had indeed gone, you would have seen all 4 wheels locked up no question.

So to me this points pretty strongly against a simple steering column failure.

Probably the most interesting thing he said (if I understood correct) was that the leading edge of the side pods were too low and caused the diffuser to stall. I'm not 100% sure I translated that right, but if true it would explain why the baxk stepped out.

Watching the onboard you sense a momantary increase in yaw rate just before the car leaves the track. This suggests to me that something at the rear, not the front has caused the loss of control.

I wonder... if any of the armchair CFD engineers here could reproduce this effect he describes about the side pods

[Daliracing]

Will we ever know the reason off the tragic accident? or will it stay a mystery forever.

[bhall]

[...]

Probably the most interesting thing he said (if I understood correct) was that the leading edge of the side pods were too low and caused the diffuser to stall. I'm not 100% sure I translated that right, but if true it would explain why the baxk stepped out.

[...]

I wonder... if any of the armchair CFD engineers here could reproduce this effect he describes about the side pods

You rang?

I actually think it's a pretty simple explanation: you can only so low with a body in ground effect until you lose downforce.

The principal point is that front-wing ground-effect depends upon two mechanisms: firstly, as the wing gets closer to the ground, a type of venturi effect occurs, accelerating the air between the ground and the wing to generate greater downforce. But in addition, a vortex forms underneath the end of the wing, close to the junction between the wing and the endplate, and this both produces downforce and keeps the boundary layer of the wing attached at a higher angle-of-attack.



The diagrams above show how this underwing vortex intensifies as the wing gets closer to the ground. In this regime, the downforce increases exponentially as the height of the wing is reduced. Beneath a certain critical height, however, the strength of the vortex reduces. Beneath this height, the downforce will continue to increase due to the venturi effect, but the rate of increase will be more linear. Eventually, at a very low height above the ground, the vortex bursts, the boundary layer separates from the suction surface, and the downforce actually reduces.

[flyboy2160]

Bh and TW,

I don't think the wing/endplate data shown would apply because the cars at that time were running very, very close to the ground. The CFD data would have to continue to much lower y/c values to be applicable.

And how does anybody answer the many instances of the cars at the time bottoming on high speed corners, showering sparks, yet not flying off like Senna did?

If it wasn't the infamous broken steering column, my suspect is the opposite of the car bottoming: Senna kept asking for a low car, with which it had a certain downforce. If the flat bottom were raised up, that downforce would be reduced - all other things equal. I recall seeing the car moving up and down a lot on the bumpy surface. If the bottom "ported" by being higher as the result of a bump, away goes the downforce. And because the car was very low to start with, a small ride height change is a large percentage of the small bottom-to-ground gap.

It's analogous to the downforce reduction the FIA achieved by raising up the outer floor sections. The new higher floors also make the downforce less susceptible to ride height changes. Every recollection I have is that the teams want to run big, flat bottoms as close to the ground as they can get them to get the most downforce (up until The Red Bull Rake).

But I need to have a beer or two and think about it again - my math is actually better UTI.

Flyboy Steve

[bhall]

...my math is actually better UTI.

Flyboy Steve

As is my driving. Wait...

The bit about losing downforce as the result of sharp increase in ride height makes sense. As I recall, the reintroduction of full-on ground effect cars was mooted several years ago when the sport became obsessed with overtaking. The teams rejected the move, however, for that very reason. Hit a curb the wrong way, and you're done.

EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, I didn't post that McCabism article to imply that the front wing had anything to do with the crash. I did so under the assumption that a floor running in ground effect would behave similarly to a front wing in ground effect.

I dunno. Maybe the whole thing was the result of a series of problems small enough to manage on their own, but big enough to cause a disaster when combined.

If, as Newey said, the FW16's sidepods were too long, it would seem to follow that vorticies used to "seal" the floor would be more s̶u̶s̶c̶e̶p̶t̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ sensitive to ride height changes due to their reduced energy at the rear of the car. On its own, that might not be catastrophic, because, as previously mentioned, cars bottom out all the time. But what if you add to the mix a slow puncture on cold tires, two problems equally as common and neither especially concerning on their own? Once you add the location of the incident into the equation, a high-speed curve with a wall awfully close to the track, you've got a deadly serious concoction.

EDIT: Word

[Gridlock]

A common (almost cliche) way to consider incidents is the "swiss cheese" concept, where numerous slices align and each has their own 'hole pattern' - normally, no issues, but when you get two or three holes aligning you get trouble. In essence, there is no one cause but a tragic alignment of several. The steering column explanation is a nice, understandable theory but in real life it's rarely straightforward and my opinion has always been as the above post, ie a deadly combination of otherwise minor issues.

It's oversimplifying things a bunch, but "Ayrton was killed by a Vauxhall Cavalier Safety Car" tends to capture most of the root causes IMO, and is especially poignant given his pre-race complaints about exactly this.

[SGeorge]

A common (almost cliche) way to consider incidents is the "swiss cheese" concept, where numerous slices align and each has their own 'hole pattern' - normally, no issues, but when you get two or three holes aligning you get trouble. In essence, there is no one cause but a tragic alignment of several. The steering column explanation is a nice, understandable theory but in real life it's rarely straightforward and my opinion has always been as the above post, ie a deadly combination of otherwise minor issues.

It's oversimplifying things a bunch, but "Ayrton was killed by a Vauxhall Cavalier Safety Car" tends to capture most of the root causes IMO, and is especially poignant given his pre-race complaints about exactly this.

Hasnt there been some attempts recently to move away from the safety car as being a main factor, owing to the nature of the crash - i.e. if it was tyre pressure related, it indicates a rear issue because he oversteered off - and the rears would be up to temperature by the second race lap?

Based on my uneducated thoughts, I subscribe to the theory that debris from the start line crash caused a slow puncture that was undetected, and on the second lap the tyre deflated by enough under load to cause the car to bottom out causing the sparks, and Senna basically steered off the road correcting it, by loadeding the inflated inside tyre causing a return to grip.

[Daliracing]

i could be a slow puncture but why does his car makes more sparks in the tamburello the lap before the inpact?

[FrukostScones]

most interesting thing in the article I think is that Simtek Charlie Moody asked Newey for help regarding the fixing of the front wing on the Simtek, but as he didn't new the tech. details he couldn't help and N. Wirth was dining... : (

[sennaf1god.94]

All I will say about this issue, is that Newey had nothing to say nor to take control in the events that led to Senna´s dead, because he was not in any way responsible for the crash.

Also I can confirm that Senna had restricted responsability for it, when he had a feeling of abandoning the race and disobeying his own intuition, which actually lend to the tragic event.

What´s truli indicative is the fact that FOCA commited Perjury when they denied the last seconds of the onboard video of the crash to the jury from Senna´s trial.

Also is noticeable that FOCA was pretty agressive on Youtuber´s publishing any video related with the crash, and not the whole race or race parts.

Yet the clues for solving the cause of his dead are contained in the external footage of the last seconds of the crash before hitting the wall. Coincidentally the most prosecuted part of the video over the net...

[sennaf1god.94]

You can also see his head reacting to the expected g-force from the steering wheel position

Wrong.

Clear your mind off prejudgements and check the whole onboard lap, when his head is at max G-Force you can see much less movement from the helmet, now compare that with the strange movements during the last second before the cam shuts off.

In my opinion I see a head bouncing inconscient on the left side of the cockpit. The car is in a straight trajectory into the wall at this moment where G-forces are actually at its lower peak. It could be a heart attack or anything else.

[Manoah2u]

You can also see his head reacting to the expected g-force from the steering wheel position

Wrong.

Clear your mind off prejudgements and check the whole onboard lap, when his head is at max G-Force you can see much less movement from the helmet, now compare that with the strange movements during the last second before the cam shuts off.

In my opinion I see a head bouncing inconscient on the left side of the cockpit. The car is in a straight trajectory into the wall at this moment where G-forces are actually at its lower peak. It could be a heart attack or anything else.

i've heard this 'theory' before, and though it has some reason to it, i think the fact Senna still moved his head in the cockpit just after the crash is proof he wasn't passed out or had a stroke/heart attack just moments before, just as i think it's not reasonable to belive he was able to brake or put effort in steering fractions before he hit the wall.

I am absolutely sure the truth is not told regarding senna's crash and death. Why and how remain up to debate. I think the biggest key to why we'll never hear the truth is because factually, because of the death of Ratzenberger, the race, according to italian law, could NEVER have been allowed to take place.
Secondly, the truth has not been told about Senna's crash.
There are enough articles here and on the web about 'evidence disappearing' or 'covering up'. The way williams handled the car just after the crash is very suspicious. The court discussions and handlings are very suspicious too.

I do belive Newey knows more then he's telling. but I do belive there is a high possibility Newey isn't allowed to say things.
I don't either think you can point a finger to newey that his car killed senna and indirectly Newey would be responsible.
Still i think there are things that are kept hidden from the public, and whenever that happens it's highly suspicious.
It could be because the race never should have happened and never should have been continued after senna's crash (death).
I still feel there is more up to it. I don't think it's mind-blowing stuff, but I think some heads will or would have rolled if the total truth would have come out back then or now.
I don't belive some 'dark forces' have been playing a dirty game taking senna out on purpose. Not at all.
But, i feel like justice has not been served.
But even if it would, it would not bring Senna back, so, well, it's as it is.

But, i don't belive it's fair to say 'we didn't know back then' as the article says. IMHO that's bs. Knowledge and technology has advanced a lot by now, but it's BS to act as if they wore working 'in the dark' and totally unaccountable.