Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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Töm87
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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I don't think there's anything mistirous about that accident. And those statement by Adrian just confirm it.
It was a sudden lose of down force that caused the crash. As simple as that.
The sideposts of the Williams were too long leading to a very small window in which the difusor worked. When the front of the car was diving" to close into the street there a sudden lose of downforce could occure as the diffusor stopped working properly from one moment to the other.
Tamburello was very bumpy. The inside was a lot more bumby than the outside, that's why Hill choose a line much more in the outside. Senna in contrast was taking the more risky, but slightly faster inside part of the corner.
Schumacher said that even in the lap before it looked to him as if Senna was close to losing controll in Tamburello.
The next lap, Senna was simply unlucky and the downforce stall happened. Maybe one lap longer, a little change in tyre pressure and everything would have been fine. But in that one lap, the car simply lost downforce in Tamurello and there wa s nothing Senna could have done from there on.
The fact that Senna then was killed by some part going throuh his helmet makes the events even more tragic of course. It was just a combination of bad luck.
Senna of course has some guilt, too. If he took Hill's line, nothing would have happened most likely. But if he took Hill's line he wouldn't have been Ayerton Senna. Senna was pushing the limits until his very last seconds.
That's why i totally disagree with all those conspirency theories" Senna knew something"... I call it bullshit.

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elFranZ
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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Töm87 wrote:I don't think there's anything mistirous about that accident.
Well, to be honest Williams didn't act the clearest way after the crash. That's why, in 20 years, we had so many speculations about what happened that day.
The official version from the trial says the steering column failed: that came after hearing many drivers and F1 engineers, and I see no reason to call this fact BS. It must be part of the truth. Newey's words must be the other one. Diffuser stalled, he tried to keep the line and the steering column, modified some hours before the race, couldn't sustain the load. The end is history.

That said, I'd like to remember everyone we're talking about a fatality: according to Sid Watkins, Senna had no fractures or wounds but the one caused by the suspension piece entering his helmet. Without that, he probably could have made his way back to the garage on his own feet. But it wasn't the case, and that day changed everything forever.
So, I find quite crazy to sustain someone made all of this on purpose. That is the real BS.

Töm87
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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Sorry you got me wrong.
The bullshit part was about the conspirency theories. "Senna knew before the start something was happening, he was afraid of dying" and so on.

The steering braking is a theory, of course. It could be true. But i personally think a sudden loss of downforce makes much more sense from looking at the pictures and knowing the issues of the Williams in early 1994. Maybe the steering broke too, but i don't thin it was tthe inital reason for the crash.

The fact that Senna likely would have survived the impact makes thinks so much more heartbraking imo :cry: :cry:

basti313
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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SGeorge wrote: Based on my uneducated thoughts, I subscribe to the theory that debris from the start line crash caused a slow puncture that was undetected, and on the second lap the tyre deflated by enough under load to cause the car to bottom out causing the sparks, and Senna basically steered off the road correcting it, by loadeding the inflated inside tyre causing a return to grip.
A puncture, especially at the rear wheel would have been visible in telemetrics as the turning rates of this wheel must have gone up. I do not think, that an "invisible" puncture is possible as they monitor things like the turning rates in millisecond range.
Daliracing wrote:i could be a slow puncture but why does his car makes more sparks in the tamburello the lap before the inpact?
I think this "sparks" signs do not make sense at all. There is no coincidence like "heavy bottoming = heavy sparks". In fact constant slight, soft bottoming produces more sparks than some heavy hits, especially in a case when the aero is not working.
FrukostScones wrote:most interesting thing in the article I think is that Simtek Charlie Moody asked Newey for help regarding the fixing of the front wing on the Simtek, but as he didn't new the tech. details he couldn't help and N. Wirth was dining... : (
Yes...absolutely crazy story...douche at work...
I do not get, why this never was brought to court. A man was killed because they used a front wing without secure mountings.
elFranZ wrote:
Töm87 wrote:I don't think there's anything mistirous about that accident.
Well, to be honest Williams didn't act the clearest way after the crash. That's why, in 20 years, we had so many speculations about what happened that day.
The official version from the trial says the steering column failed: that came after hearing many drivers and F1 engineers, and I see no reason to call this fact BS. It must be part of the truth. Newey's words must be the other one. Diffuser stalled, he tried to keep the line and the steering column, modified some hours before the race, couldn't sustain the load. The end is history.
I do not really believe that both things happened. But in the end I do not really see why this has to be resolved. They reacted on both types of failures and such failures can happen on a prototype. Sure, welding the steering sounds crazy, but I believe there were more welding joints on the steering in this time...I can not believe that otherwise everything was made from one part.
elFranZ wrote: That said, I'd like to remember everyone we're talking about a fatality: according to Sid Watkins, Senna had no fractures or wounds but the one caused by the suspension piece entering his helmet. Without that, he probably could have made his way back to the garage on his own feet. But it wasn't the case, and that day changed everything forever.
So, I find quite crazy to sustain someone made all of this on purpose. That is the real BS.
Do you know if and how they reacted to this? Any changes at the helmets? I do not remember anything in this case...
Don`t russel the hamster!

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elFranZ
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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If and how?
A couple days after the tragic race, GPDA was born.
In the name of safety, crash tests were introduced for car's homologation. In 1997, Euro Ncap was indroduced in Europe for road cars, based on what FIA was realizing for Formula1.
In 2007, Robert Kubica survived the most horrific accident I've ever seen during a race, without a single wound.
In 2009, a spring bouncing on the track hit Felipe Massa's helmet; although wounded, he survived. And here you can read what he thinks:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... ons-207138
Hope you now remember.

basti313
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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elFranZ wrote:If and how?
A couple days after the tragic race, GPDA was born.
In the name of safety, crash tests were introduced for car's homologation. In 1997, Euro Ncap was indroduced in Europe for road cars, based on what FIA was realizing for Formula1.
In 2007, Robert Kubica survived the most horrific accident I've ever seen during a race, without a single wound.
Yes, this is all well known of course. It would also take this too far because a lot of things have been done.
I mean really specific to the helmet.
elFranZ wrote: In 2009, a spring bouncing on the track hit Felipe Massa's helmet; although wounded, he survived. And here you can read what he thinks:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... ons-207138
Hope you now remember.
Of course. But was this the "normal" development in 15 years (like security was enhanced for helmets of bikers or skiers without famous accidents) or were there really direct reactions on the case of sharp pieces going through the helmet?
When were the rules for the helmets changed?
Don`t russel the hamster!

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elFranZ
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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Found this on the FIA Institute site:
http://www.fiainstitute.com/media-centr ... re-12.aspx

And you may find this more interesting:
"The concept of a ‘super helmet’ for Formula One has its roots back in the 1990s when the FIA’s Professor Sid Watkins asked UK’s Transport Research Laboratory (TRL) to use F1 accident data to reconstruct a number of crashes to help understand the forces involved in F1 accidents.
Mellor, who was then the head of the motor sport safety department at TRL, says that the programme aimed to apply the best available science to investigate the kinematics of F1.
“We were doing that for a number of years before we would say what the improvements could be,” says Mellor. “But at the same time there was a rapid advance in materials technology. When it came to helmet design there was the traditional progressive development going on but I wanted to set a much more demanding target.”
"

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sennaf1god.94
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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elFranZ wrote: In 2009, a spring bouncing on the track hit Felipe Massa's helmet; although wounded, he survived.
Senna´s crash is exactly a copy of Massa´s.

I can´t see any tyre blocking nor smoke coming out from them during the last seconds until impact, his helmet apparently is motionless and bouncing in the mirror. For me there is not a single doubt in my mind that Senna was in a similar brain fade state as Massa´s after being hit by Barrichello´s suspension spring.

Massa was also moving his head inside the cockpit after the crash, similarly to Senna´s.

Senna might have suffered an spontaneous brain hemorrage, a heart attack, or anything alse that caused him lose total or part of his conscience.

Senna suffered a frackture of the base of the skull, something compatible with his neck muscles being relaxed. Meaning he could not have survived even if there was no forefront trauma.
Last edited by sennaf1god.94 on 01 May 2014, 15:49, edited 3 times in total.
I don't know driving in another way which isn't risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other's.

Ayrton Senna da Silva

tim|away
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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There is the theory that senna passed out and thus caused the accident. Peter Windsor does a good job of recalling the events and discusses different angles that aren't commonly talked about in a 6 part series.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9sEnctWn4[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47RTqZb_F0Y[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy_uBc699NE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqo8Jh0JPDs[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1aIJLJHPe4[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRXDBDeinYU[/youtube]

Richard
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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Oh Lord (I'm referring to mythological beings not Senna ideology) we have another Senna anniversary and the fanboys are out in force. Emotive posts shrieking about injustice have been cast into the eternal void.

Now lets get back to some objective discussion about a racing event. The fact that is just happened to include a certain driver from Brasil isn't really relevant.

ps - Is there really anything new to add? Here's the previous raking over the coals :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=15335

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sennaf1god.94
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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richard_leeds wrote:ps - Is there really anything new to add? Here's the previous raking over the coals :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=15335[/i]
Renault´s Telemetry data is proven to be fake, as they: a) stealed the INTACT blackbox from parc fermee against all rules and with Charlie Whiting permission, b) actually destroyed it with the help of a hammer, and c) avoided any judicial expert reading the original data extracted from the SMASHED ECU.

As long as the chain of custody of that evidence was blatantly broken, any data presented by Renault can be legally considered FALSE, FAKE, BS...

No need to 14 pages of discusion that leads to Nowhere.

:wink:
I don't know driving in another way which isn't risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other's.

Ayrton Senna da Silva

Richard
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Re: Adrian Newey on Senna's death

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sennaf1god.94 wrote:....

I think you proved my point.

Game over.