Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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xpensive
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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My kriztal ball seez the return Flavio and the revival of the independent league, perhaps that was Todt's idea all the time?

Needless to say, they will invite the 3.0 V10s again.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

emaren
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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In many respects I am playing devil's advocate - I think that the idea of gold medals for race winners had merit, we could very well be in the situation whereby the champion this year wins 4 races to the second place drivers 9 or 10.

So, yes, I feel that it is right to reward the top teams way more.

It costs at least $100M for a two car team to run for a season, $200M would see you in the mid field. If you want to run at the front, it seems that you need $400M or more. That is the price of entry, if you cannot afford to pay, well, you cannot play....

If you cannot afford it, then you have no place on the grid. No team should be going into F1 with a paltry budget and hoping that they magically break into the top tier. It is simply not going to happen.

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thedutchguy
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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emaren wrote:If you cannot afford it, then you have no place on the grid. No team should be going into F1 with a paltry budget and hoping that they magically break into the top tier. It is simply not going to happen.
Well, you can only afford it if there's enough money coming in, isn't there? The problem is that the current system gives all the money to those at the front, and almost none to those at the back. I'm not saying there should be no reward for good performance, but there should be a basic split BEFORE money is divided based upon performance.

A race team should be able to be a stand alone business. Not something which is only viable when you have a parent (automobile) company who's willing to pour money into a team because of it's PR value. A few years ago when the recession hit we saw what that can do to the sport when both Honda and Toyota decided the cost was to high for the benefits.

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MOWOG
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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It costs at least $100M for a two car team to run for a season, $200M would see you in the mid field. If you want to run at the front, it seems that you need $400M or more. That is the price of entry, if you cannot afford to pay, well, you cannot play....
I see your point. But the analysis kind of depends on your point of view, doesn't it? From the point of view of Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull and McLaren, what you say is absolutely correct.

However, from the point of view of the fans, quite the opposite is true. We don't want to see the same 4 teams on top race after race, year after year. I agree with the dutch guy. DIvvy up the pot in some equitable way that allows every team to have a chance to be competitive THEN reward the top teams for their superior results. NASCAR doesn't do much that appeals to me, but they DO pay prize money back to 57th place or something ridiculous like that. As a result, the grids are full to bursting. In Formula One, absent three car teams, the grids could feature as few as 14 cars - maybe less. :roll: That's not racing. That's an overhyped, made for TV spectacle designed to feed a few egos and fool networks into covering it.

Oh, wait...... :-" :-$
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wesley123
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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MOWOG wrote: We don't want to see the same 4 teams on top race after race, year after year.
And yet, people have done just that for over 60 years.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

xpensive
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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wesley123 wrote:
MOWOG wrote: We don't want to see the same 4 teams on top race after race, year after year.
And yet, people have done just that for over 60 years.
You obviously don't remember Lotus, Brabham and BRM, do you?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

astracrazy
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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thedutchguy wrote: Well, you can only afford it if there's enough money coming in, isn't there? The problem is that the current system gives all the money to those at the front, and almost none to those at the back. I'm not saying there should be no reward for good performance, but there should be a basic split BEFORE money is divided based upon performance.
They should use a system like the premier league does in football. Basically 50% is shared equally to all teams, then the remaining 50% is divided up depending on position. 10th place gets #### and 9th #### and so on.

The trouble is, the big teams won't accept this because they don't dare risk there income being based on performance.

Ferrari want the biggest chunk of the pie always, in this system there chunk would be getting smaller this year

CjC
CjC
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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astracrazy wrote:
thedutchguy wrote: Well, you can only afford it if there's enough money coming in, isn't there? The problem is that the current system gives all the money to those at the front, and almost none to those at the back. I'm not saying there should be no reward for good performance, but there should be a basic split BEFORE money is divided based upon performance.
They should use a system like the premier league does in football. Basically 50% is shared equally to all teams, then the remaining 50% is divided up depending on position. 10th place gets #### and 9th #### and so on.

The trouble is, the big teams won't accept this because they don't dare risk there income being based on performance.

Ferrari want the biggest chunk of the pie always, in this system there chunk would be getting smaller this year
This is the solution.
The one problem in f1 at this moment in time is Bernie Ecclestone. Times up old man, step aside and let a young buck run the show in the 21st century, in the 21st century way.
What annoys me about Bernie is that he doesn't care for the traditional Grand Prix circuits and countries but gets all bleary eyed about Ferrari? What the frig?
The prize money needs sharing out like the premier league fairly, hell the teams that get relegated from the prem get 30 million! 30 million for basically failing the season!!
Just a fan's point of view

Raleigh
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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astracrazy wrote:
thedutchguy wrote: Well, you can only afford it if there's enough money coming in, isn't there? The problem is that the current system gives all the money to those at the front, and almost none to those at the back. I'm not saying there should be no reward for good performance, but there should be a basic split BEFORE money is divided based upon performance.
They should use a system like the premier league does in football. Basically 50% is shared equally to all teams, then the remaining 50% is divided up depending on position. 10th place gets #### and 9th #### and so on.
That is almost exactly the current system.

50% is divided equally between all category 1 teams (any team that has finished twice in the top 10 in the last 3 years), and the remaining 50% divided based on position. Oh, and Ferrari gets a special bonus payment for being Ferrari.

If you're asking why that 50% is split only between category 1 and not all 11 teams, its because a few years back Marussia decided to play hardball in negotiations with Bernie ("can't show our cars on TV until you've given us a contract"), and Bernie's revenge was to cut the weakest team (at the time very much Marussia) out of the revenue distribution.

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MOWOG
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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Ferrari want the biggest chunk of the pie always, in this system there chunk would be getting smaller this year
That's the way it should be, no? :idea:
Some men go crazy; some men go slow. Some men go just where they want; some men never go.

Richard
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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xpensive wrote:My kriztal ball seez...
Is that the same one that forecast that Austin would never get built and that the 3 kings doomed Merc to failure? Hopefully its had a recalibration since then.

Hang on a second, looking at your prediction I hope to God it is the same ball. A series run by Flavio would be even more of a circus than Bernie's version. :o

emaren
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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Well, running the numbers....

I looked for some data on exactly how much money a race 'makes'.

In 2014 F1 managed to bring in $1.6B and it 'gave' $700M to the teams.

Even if that $700M was distributed evenly, that is 'only' $58M each. Which is just a little over half of the recognised minimum entry ($100M).

If the entire $1.6B was distributed, that is 'only' $80M each.

I presume that F1 has to make a profit, pay taxes, pay Bernie :) etc.

So even if the $700M was raised to $1B and the distribution was even, then the $83M still is not enough to run a back marker team.

However, the BBC feel that
Last year, F1 generated around $1.6 billion in commercial revenues, of which $700 million was distributed to the teams. Roughly half of this cash fund is shared equally with the other half allocated according to where the team finished in the championship.
So the last few teams got 1/12th of $350M or ~$30M. Some teams - Ferrari/RedBull etc then got the lions share of the other half. Which actually seems reasonably fair.

So, if we assume that the $100M is a true estimate of running a back marker, it is obvious that it is pretty much impossible to put a car on the back of the grid and stay within the 107% rule without finding $70M or more from somewhere.

The company that I work for sponsors an F1 team, I know what we spent on 2014 putting our name on the car, on the team website, on the team outfits. It is a considerable number, it would employ me all the way deep into my retirement. The number is apparently rather good value according to marketing due to the teams performance this year compared with last year when the deal was worked out. Incidentally we looked into putting our name on a back marker too this year, but they wanted such a significant percentage of the current front-running team rather that we declined.

Given the numbers we pay, and basing the surface area that we cover, I figure that the team we sponsor must be pulling in at least $250M in sponsorship. Plus of course the $30M - so they probably have a budget of $280M or more.....

So really any team that is going to enter needs to have sponsorship in place that will pay them $200M /year just in order to compete. Also they would need start-up capital sufficient to design and build their car, their wind tunnel, their team. I have no real idea of just how huge this number is, but my guess is at least $200M.

So I guess that the entry cost is pushing half a billion USD.

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hollus
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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Back at the end of the 2013 season:
Pup wrote:The allocation of this year's prize fund, per Saward's formula (which I don't think is quite accurate, since it doesn't account for the "Category B" payments which are based on historic performance)...

Total estimated fund (per TJ13) - $750,000,000, less Ferrari's 2.5%, or $18,250,000, leaves $711,750,000.

Half of that, or $355,875,000, will be split evenly among the top 9 teams, or $39,541,666.67 for each.
(This is normally a top 10 split, but since a team has to remain in the top 10 for 2 years straight to qualify, Marussia does not partake.)


The other half gets split as follows:
1st @ 19% = $67,616,250
2nd @ 16% = 56,940,000
3rd @ 13% = $46,263,750
4th @ 11% = $39,146,250
5th @ 10% = $35,587,500
6th @ 9% = $32,028,750
7th @ 7% = $24,911,250
8th @ 6% = $21,352,500
9th @ 5% = $17,793,750
10th @ 4% = $14,235,000

Bernie's $10,000,000 new team deal is up this year, so no more of that.

Adding it all up, the total prize money for the year:

Red Bull - $107,157,916.67
Mercedes - $96,481,666.67
Ferrari - $104,055,416.67
Lotus - $78,687,916.67
McLaren - $75,129,166.67
Force India - $71,570,416.67
Sauber - $64,452,916.67
Toro Rosso - $60,894,166.67
Williams - $57,355,416,67
Marussia - $14,235,000.00
Caterham - $0.00
hollus wrote:Little wonder that Marussia and Caterham have trouble catching up with the rest. What is the point of the top-10 money limits anymore?
Had a top-12 finish been for grabs, Marussia could have made a deal with Caterham to let them by for 14M$, then both teams could split that top-10 split money 50-50, and both teams would have won 20M$. Makes no sense!
And both Carteham and Marussia ended out of the big pot, because of fighting for the rights to get in the pot this year (top-10 2 years in a row). Marussia is about to get it now, if it survives, but it would be a very different Marussia. But if they had made the crazy deal last year where Marussia gifted the 10th place to Caterham, we would not be having this conversation now...
Rivals, not enemies.

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FoxHound
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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Quite clearly Bernie is not interested in having teams ten and eleven.
What strikes me as bizarre, is that these teams are fully aware of what they are going to get in terms of prize money.

I'm not advocating this payout as sufficient, but why spend more than you earn, then complain you don't get enough when you know what the figure is?

Bernie is basically telling them to up sticks elsewhere.
JET set

Richard
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Re: Parr says only eight teams next year, three car teams.

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Teams have always been coming and going at the back of the grid, the problem this time is there doesn't seem to be new teams offering to come in.

I agree the teams can't be so naive as to not understand the way the money goes in F1, in and out the Eagle (aka Bernie) - pop goes the weasel!

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