Engine Unfreeze

[mikeerfol]

Remember that thing Renault did after the 2013 Brazil race where they revved the engines without any limiter at all? That's when they reached 22k rpm.

[turbof1]

Remember that thing Renault did after the 2013 Brazil race where they revved the engines without any limiter at all? That's when they reached 22k rpm.

They'll also need to stengthen the whole deal since the engine got destroyed by running it that high in revs. But still possible.

[Juzh]

I think V8 with 2006 rules and developing them from 22K Rpm limit and from that point making them fuel efficient will be so good see with current state of development.

V8s never revved to 22k.

They probably can by current technology.

Sure, engine freeze put pay to that.

[Richard]

The F1 brand was built on a perception of exotica such as carbon fibre and beryllium. A sense of crazy complexity created by obsessive geeks and mavericks simply because they can. The current PU perfectly fits that image.

In your opinion it fits that image.

Kind of hard to fit that image when the design parameters were so strict that it forced everyone into the same funnel for the most part. They didn't create these engines in a "simply because they can" manner...if they did, they'd be putting out outrageous power numbers for starters.

There's no denying that the PU regulations have a crazy complexity created by obsessive geeks and mavericks simply because they can. Also a lot of PU engineers will have had fun spending stupid amounts of R&D money because they can. That's what's led to an arms race that is unsustainable for the customer teams.

[GitanesBlondes]

Not really Richard. It has nothing to do with obsessive geeks and mavericks.

The regulations are what they are because they were intended to try and prevent anyone from finding a loophole anywhere. Nowadays, the regulations are written with the intent on banning nearly every last possible thing that might allow anyone to gain an engineering advantage. There's very little diversity to be had any longer.

The more stringent the regulations become, the less chance there is of finding cost-effective engineering solutions.

If the only solution is an expensive one, then everyone is forced to pursue the expensive one instead of a cheaper alternative that may exist because the regulations dictate it must be so.

There hasn't been any arms race on the engine side of things.

[Sevach]

Remember that thing Renault did after the 2013 Brazil race where they revved the engines without any limiter at all? That's when they reached 22k rpm.

They'll also need to stengthen the whole deal since the engine got destroyed by running it that high in revs. But still possible.

If i remember correctly, the Renault guy predicted 22k and 860 horses if development was free.

[swarren7]

But even if they were free to develop they are still restricted to a certain amount of fuel and a certain fuel flow rate so they would never achieve the 22k and 860 horses.

[goonerf1]

I think adopting the WEC's "Equivalence of Performance" rules is the way forward.

If Renault and Merc want to stick to these current crop of expensive hybrid engines, let them.
If Toyota want to join with their 3.7l V8 with ERS front and rear axle + supercapacitor, let them.
Same for Audi, Porsche, Nissan etc. Whatever suits your companies agenda.

Even if you want to run one of the older, cheaper, N/A V8's or 10's, why should you not be allowed to?
F1 is way too restrictive in my view.

Straight off the bat, the WEC got their calculations pretty close this year for LMP1 with a gap of just 0.3 in qualifying, so the FIA Technical Delegate would have absolutely no excuse for not doing the same.

Any reasons why this wouldn't work?

[sectionate]

I think adopting the WEC's "Equivalence of Performance" rules is the way forward.

If Renault and Merc want to stick to these current crop of expensive hybrid engines, let them.
If Toyota want to join with their 3.7l V8 with ERS front and rear axle + supercapacitor, let them.
Same for Audi, Porsche, Nissan etc. Whatever suits your companies agenda.

Even if you want to run one of the older, cheaper, N/A V8's or 10's, why should you not be allowed to?
F1 is way too restrictive in my view.

Straight off the bat, the WEC got their calculations pretty close this year for LMP1 with a gap of just 0.3 in qualifying, so the FIA Technical Delegate would have absolutely no excuse for not doing the same.

Any reasons why this wouldn't work?

Because the people who control the sport are bat-sh*t-crazy and all have there own agenda...?

[turbof1]

I think adopting the WEC's "Equivalence of Performance" rules is the way forward.

If Renault and Merc want to stick to these current crop of expensive hybrid engines, let them.
If Toyota want to join with their 3.7l V8 with ERS front and rear axle + supercapacitor, let them.
Same for Audi, Porsche, Nissan etc. Whatever suits your companies agenda.

Even if you want to run one of the older, cheaper, N/A V8's or 10's, why should you not be allowed to?
F1 is way too restrictive in my view.

Straight off the bat, the WEC got their calculations pretty close this year for LMP1 with a gap of just 0.3 in qualifying, so the FIA Technical Delegate would have absolutely no excuse for not doing the same.

Any reasons why this wouldn't work?

Because the people who control the sport are bat-sh*t-crazy and all have there own agenda...?

That's the reason why this will not work (or for that matter any other sufficient change). They'll fight over lolly pops when one is greener then the other.

[Richard]

Not really Richard. It has nothing to do with obsessive geeks and mavericks.

The regulations are what they are because they were intended to try and prevent anyone from finding a loophole anywhere. Nowadays, the regulations are written with the intent on banning nearly every last possible thing that might allow anyone to gain an engineering advantage. There's very little diversity to be had any longer.

The more stringent the regulations become, the less chance there is of finding cost-effective engineering solutions.

If the only solution is an expensive one, then everyone is forced to pursue the expensive one instead of a cheaper alternative that may exist because the regulations dictate it must be so.

There hasn't been any arms race on the engine side of things.

I agree. That's how we end up with teams spending hundreds of millions on trying to exploit tiny variations in the hope of finding an advantage. So the designers have to get more and more obsessive about tiny details - for example spending umpteen manhours tweaking a tiny FW endplate because that's just about the only thing they can vary.

The PR says "This sport is so hi-tech that we spend millions to adjust something by 1 mm". The critic thinks "Has it really come to this?"

[drivinhard]

Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile. You should try going to a race, the pushrod V8's are not technologically cutting edge, but at least they add the sound aspect

It's a low tech "formula", but I assure you it's absolutely cutting edge in end delivery and R&D sophistication. Kurt Busch's car post 2007 Michigan race impound made 839 RWHP on a dynojet (the highest of all cars tested). If you think building a 900 hp 2 valve, carbureted, 358 ci NA motor that makes that kind of power and lasts for 500 miles @ WOT isn't cutting edge, think again.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... _to_f1.htm

[MOWOG]

So the sport really isn't high tech, it's just hugely expensive? Man, that is messed up....

[Vettel Maggot]

Here's the bigger point too Richard, NASCAR has never claimed to be a true cutting edge series, which is what F1 has been claiming to be for awhile. You should try going to a race, the pushrod V8's are not technologically cutting edge, but at least they add the sound aspect

It's a low tech "formula", but I assure you it's absolutely cutting edge in end delivery and R&D sophistication. Kurt Busch's car post 2007 Michigan race impound made 839 RWHP on a dynojet (the highest of all cars tested). If you think building a 900 hp 2 valve, carbureted, 358 ci NA motor that makes that kind of power and lasts for 500 miles @ WOT isn't cutting edge, think again.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... _to_f1.htm

Exactly.

I don't love or hate NASCAR, I like watching the road course events, but you have to respect the engineering, the sustained revs and the power those engines make is pretty impressive.

Whilst it might be exciting for the techno geeks to see the current F1 engines, again, for the people that matter (the other 80% that come to races for a show) they are being turned off. Say what you will, call them simpletons for wanting more noise or whatever, but if these average Joe punters don't turn up anymore and pay for tickets, food, a Mercedes or Ferrari hat, say goodbye to F1 long term.

The reality of modern day F1 is it has reached a point where it is hard for a manufacturer to justify competing due to both the costs being sky high and the rules constantly changing. People aren't buying cars like they used to and running a team which doesn't generate any income stream just doesn't make sense. This is where these new rules have come from. The justification to the board is 'oh but its good for our hybrid sales division'.

At the end of the day, what do we want as a consumer want? The pinnacle of engineering? Then we need to be happy with quiet, complex engines and a grid of 3 car teams with only the big players competing. Do we want a full grid of loud, less 'sophisticated' F1 cars with smaller, privately owned teams a budget cap allowing anyone to compete? F1 doesn't know what the consumer wants because the are not engaging with fans on a social media level enough and we probably don't even know what we want, just look at the various discussions in this forum.

Just about the only thing that's clear is the majority of people have fallen slightly out of love with F1 in its current state.

[MOWOG]

F1 doesn't know what the consumer wants

I have a colleague who travels quite a bit and found himself once in an airport lounge in the Middle East. Frank Williams happened to be in the same lounge and they got to talking. It turns out, Sir Frank was astounded to learn that there were a lot of Formula One fans in America!

Just who the F@CK did he think all those 300,000+ people were in the stands at Indy in 2000? Lithuanians on holiday????

Fans are to Formula One what voters are to politicians - irritating, annoying little people who should be ignored whenever possible. And when you absolutely have to engage with them, feed 'em a line of BS, pat 'em on the head and send them on their way as quickly as possible. Under no circumstances pay any attention to what they have to say because, after all, they are just ordinary folks with low IQ's, bad breath and bratty kids.

They have nothing but utter contempt for us. And it shows.