How to fix F1

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Daliracing
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Joined: 16 Sep 2013, 23:19

Re: How to fix F1

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I just found this: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3185 ... e-payment/
I think the idea is good to keep the smaller teams alive but what will they describe as a small team? Will it be based on results or finances?

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Kiril Varbanov
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 15:00
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia

Re: How to fix F1

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Regarding payments: Joe Saward ran excellent piece here - http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/ ... sentences/

Image

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mertol
7
Joined: 19 Mar 2013, 10:02

Re: How to fix F1

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What a stupid system - screwing the weakest teams and giving the biggest pie to Bernie wtf?!

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ian_s
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Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 14:44
Location: Medway Towns

Re: How to fix F1

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its only stupid if you arent Bernie

Raleigh
Raleigh
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Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 15:36

Re: How to fix F1

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Well, that is very interesting...

The distribution of revenue is more uneven than I'd thought :wtf:

One minor query though, as this seems to be for 2013, Marussia beat Caterham, so would they not have received the $17.1M Column 2 payment instead?

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FW17
168
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: How to fix F1

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I am not sure if it will be fair or sustainable to smaller teams even if it was redistributed (without the historic payments)

It will work out like this among 13

171
122
105
79
75
70
65
61
56
51
47
42
37

If bonus is spread to top 6 then it looks worse for the WCC

144
119
104
95
85
75
65
61
56
51
47
42
37

But i think 37 million would cover bulk of the car cost and staff cost but still someone has to pay for race expenses and drive train contracts

Based on current state with last team getting about 60 million I don't see any reason to run in the red with wise management but running 11, 12 13 is not going to work

Moose
Moose
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Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: How to fix F1

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Eddie Jordan has a very nice simple explanation for why teams are folding now, and not 2 years ago on the end of the BBC's practice one feed. It basically comes down to "F1 is 20 million more expensive than it was 2 years ago", for two reasons
1) Bernie stopped paying for flying the car parts around (10m gone)
2) The engines cost 10m more a year.

For a small team, the required budget just doubled.

kooleracer
kooleracer
24
Joined: 05 Jan 2012, 16:07

Re: How to fix F1

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Regarding payments: Joe Saward ran excellent piece here - http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/ ... sentences/

https://joesaward.files.wordpress.com/2 ... tures3.jpg

So Ferrari is doing F1 for free? They get 200 million to go racing each year and that's without their sponsorship income. And even with all that money they can't even compete with Red Bull wasted money in my eyes.

They best idea I have heard is that of Gary Anderson. The constructors should all support a junior team.

Mercedes --> Sauber
Ferrari --> Gene Haas
Red Bull --> Toro Rosso
McLaren --> Force India
Lotus --> Should get bonus from prize money for competing without manufacturer behind it. Should get the 30m that Mercedes is no getting "historical pot".
Williams --> Already get enough for the prize money so nothing should change there.

So Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull all have young driver programs. They should be able to put their drivers at those junior teams and the teams should be able to get free power-unit and get parts that the FIA allows them so share also for free. At the moment its to only way to make F1 healthier. Also I think Honda shouldn't be allowed to just provide for 1 team if you join F1 you should at least supply 2 teams with engines, so that every manufacturer has a junior team. This is a more sustainable way of running F1. Small teams effectively don't pay for engines but they groom young drivers for the feature. Also the would stop the pay drivers problem we have now, because the top teams aren't interested in money but in talent.

The concept of keeping 10 or more teams alive in F1 isn't realistic anymore. Look at MotoGP. Yamaha, Honda, Aprillia, Suzuki and Ducati. 5 top teams and the rest is has an tie in with the manufacturers. Tech 3 Yamaha has ties with the Yamaha, LCR/MarcVDS with Honda and Pramac with Ducati. Really good business model. I'm sure that the openbikes will disappear in the future when Suzuki and Aprillia both start supplying those teams. Thats the right model in this day an age an not 10 constructors were only 4 matters and the rest is struggling to survive.

Those 4 teams tied to manufactures should be fight for a new championship, so that so 4 teams are still in F1 to win and not just here the serve the big teams.

The likes of Sauber and Force India should face the reality that they can't survive if they stay independent. They would save half or their budget if they were forced to tie up with a manufactuer in return for a free engine deal and free use parts that are allowed by the FIA it they give up there 2 seats in return for it. That would save them in the region of 30-50M dollars a year, that money they could spend on improving their cars, so that the fans get a really exciting race where the teams are much closer. Engines are the most expansive part of F1 if they could get those for free that would save a lot of teams a lot of money.

This means they are still manufactures so there are no costumer cars. You will have 10 teams that are funded right and the competition should be close because the small teams can spend a bigger amount of their budget on upgrades. Also the level of the future F1 should be higher because the smaller teams aren't in need of money to survive in F1. And ofcourse if BMW, Toyata or the VW Group want to enter F1 the should enter a partnership with Williams and Lotus would become there young driver team. Then you have 5 manufactuers with 2 teams that all have the same goal of competing and all 10 teams would have the means to compete, the manufactuers in the WCC and the WDC and the junior teams for the Junior Driver Championship (JDC) and the WCC.

Its cheaper for everybody this way the manufactures only have to support 2 teams. The junior teams now don't have to struggle for funds because their biggest costs are now free. And they the best young drivers available to drive for team. Their only focus would be finding sponsorship and building fast cars like it should be. Because who are we kidding Sauber, Force India, STR will never win the WDC and WCC in the current formula. With the new rules on of teams would win the JDC title, which is better then knowing that you can't compete and win anything.

To attract manufactures the prize money should be divided to the manufactuerus equally. Lets say the prize money pot is 1.2 billion (the teams should unit and agree with CVC that the teams should als wet 66% of the profit to split amonst them. And we did have 5 manufactures. Each manufacturer would get 150m and the last 100m would be divided 1st 30m, 2nd 25m, 20m 3rd 15m 4th and 10m 5th. This would mean that every manufactuers would get enough to survive and supply 2 teams. And that the smaller teams would each get 10m a year free engine package and FIA allowed parts. This why you attract new manufacturers because for entering F1 they would get 150m dollar a year.

So now you have a clear prize distribution system the big teams get more from the pot and the small teams get to survive and can win something tangible.


Lets say in 2016 would would have 5 manufacturers the prize money would look like this WCC:

1st. Ferrari 200m + 30m = 230m
2nd.Mercedes 200m +25m = 225m
3rd. McLaren-Honda 200m + 20m = 220m
4th. Red Bull- Renault 200m + 15m = 215m
5th. Williams - BMW 200m + 10m = 210m

Sauber,Lotus, STR, Gene Haas F1 and Force India would all get 20M start money. That would be enough if you take a way engine costs and free FIA sanctioned parts. With this model I don't think Toyota, BMW or the VW Group would think twice about signing up for F1. Even if you have a a bad season as a manufacturer you would still have to funds to compete in F1. Off course this is only prize money teams would be able to create bigger budgets from sponsorship deals. A clean and transparent model for F1 that is sustainable because manufacturers can attract bigger sponsors to the sport which will mean higher revenue and a bigger prize pot for the team. This is a sustainable model in which no teams should struggle.

F1 is more about marketing these days then a sport, so F1 should change its philosophy form extreme competition to global marketing platform for cars manufacturers. The most important for F1 to survive in the future is to have enough manufacturers that are willing to invest in F1 and at the moment investing in F1 as a manufacture is to big a risk because to will be throwing away money without getting anything back because you are the cards are stacked against you. In this model as a manufacture you would be able to change a maximum 50% of the engine during/ every season, to promote innovation.
Last edited by kooleracer on 11 Nov 2014, 20:03, edited 9 times in total.
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Töm87
Töm87
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Joined: 03 Oct 2013, 11:25

Re: How to fix F1

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Well, i think to find a solution we should look back at the past.
In the late 1980es, we had no super futuristic race tracks, no huge TV deals, no programs to reduce costs, no shortage of engines ect... Yet we had up to 39 cars competing for a spot on the grid.
So what has happened since then, why is it so much more expensive to run an F1 car now compared to what it was back then?

langwadt
langwadt
35
Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 14:54

Re: How to fix F1

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Töm87 wrote:Well, i think to find a solution we should look back at the past.
In the late 1980es, we had no super futuristic race tracks, no huge TV deals, no programs to reduce costs, no shortage of engines ect... Yet we had up to 39 cars competing for a spot on the grid.
So what has happened since then, why is it so much more expensive to run an F1 car now compared to what it was back then?
Things are more complicated, if you need several hundred people and huge facilities just to run a team money burns fast

It's an arms race, if you let them they big ones will keep trying to outspend each other , leaving nothing for the small
(money or "glory") eventually it collapses when the small teams are gone and some of the big leave.

It has happen to most other racing series that are no more

Many American sports leagues have some kind of budget limitations. Because those behind it realizes that a some what
level playing field is good for business

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: How to fix F1

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Just give the Ferrari payment and the other two historic payments to the bottom teams. Bang, they get to afford F1 again. Easy.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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FW17
168
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: How to fix F1

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Get rid of the ERS for a few years run only turbo engines with a fuel flow of 200kg/hr, refueling and 20 engines/car/season

And get a Emirates based team

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Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: How to fix F1

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Töm87 wrote:So what has happened since then, why is it so much more expensive to run an F1 car now compared to what it was back then?
The law of diminishing returns. As a system comes closer to its optimum, any gains become exponentially more expensive in terms of performance per $£€. The cars are much closer to their regulatory and physical limits than they were in the 1980s.
Not the engineer at Force India

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: How to fix F1

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Regarding payments: Joe Saward ran excellent piece here - http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/ ... sentences/

https://joesaward.files.wordpress.com/2 ... tures3.jpg
The most confusing thing to me is why Mercedes got a historical bonus and Lotus and Sauber didn't.
Not the engineer at Force India

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strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: How to fix F1

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Run normally aspirated engines of a set displacement, any number of cylinders that suits you and eliminate all this extraneous crap.
Get rid of DRS.
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