Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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MOWOG
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Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Bernie says he wants naturally aspirated V-10's back in Formula One. He says they can have a KERS system so they can be branded as "hybrids" to satisfy the eco-nazis. And he says the FIA is no problem because Jean Todt "sold the rights in a recent commercial deal."

Huh? Say what?? Is this just Bernie being Bernie? Is it yet another sign of his decline into senility? What's going on here? :?:


Ecclestone to propose V10 comeback for F1

Bernie Ecclestone refuses to give up his crusade against F1's current engine formula. Meeting with a select group of reporters on Thursday including Forbes' business journalist Christian Sylt, the F1 chief executive revealed that he intends to propose the sport brings back loud "normally-aspirated" engines for 2016. He said he will table the matter at the December 18 meeting of the powerful Strategy Group.

Asked if he is contemplating V8s or V10s, and referring to the teams and manufacturers, 84-year-old Ecclestone answered: "It's up to them."

Ecclestone said to counter the argument that abandoning the quieter energy-recovery-boosted turbos would be a backwards step, the 2016 engines would be branded as 'Hybrid' and have KERS systems aboard. And he played down suggestions carmakers like Honda and Mercedes will walk away by insisting it would actually be "a bit of a dream for them to build a normally-aspirated engine and develop it to about 1000 horse power".

Ecclestone denied that potentially putting off Volkswagen might be another obstacle, as the German giant has been "out there for long enough and haven't made a big enough effort to come in".

Fascinatingly, Ecclestone also said the FIA might not even be an obstacle to the move, given that president FIA president Jean Todt "sold the rights" in a recent commercial deal. "The Strategy Group that we have got," he explained. "We made a contribution of $40 million a year to buy that actually. "They sold the rights to have this new group set up in the way we thought it should be set up," Ecclestone added.

Via grandprix.com
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Thunder
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Time for him to retire.....
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
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turbof1
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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It was clear a long time ago that the fia lacked any power. Now we know why. They effectively forfeited 2/3 of their weight in regulation matters. The FOM is, based on the fact they formally have a third of the votes and have a huge influence over the top teams, the decision maker. I'm hating that prospect a lot.

What good is a V10 going to bring? It's outdated technology; remove the fuel flow limit in the current engines and they easily are capable of reaching well beyond 1000bhp, with the extra noise coming from it too. Going back to V10's will force out Mercedes, Renault and Honda. A V10 is good for people who are looking back to a previous era with nostalgy, and perhaps also for Ferrari. However to all the others it's simply a knee-jerk move. F1 went through the pain of developing these engines, atleast it should be given a chance to sort itself out.
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Jolle
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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This sounds like some reverse tactic. It's quite clear now that the big car companies are interested in F1 again because there is actual relevant development (semi low revs, fuel economic, big milage). He wants a clear answer from the big teams and the engine suppliers "no, we want this PU", to end all discussion.

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Juzh
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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turbof1 wrote:It was clear a long time ago that the fia lacked any power. Now we know why. They effectively forfeited 2/3 of their weight in regulation matters. The FOM is, based on the fact they formally have a third of the votes and have a huge influence over the top teams, the decision maker. I'm hating that prospect a lot.
What riddles me is WHY on earth would the FIA forfeit so much power in the first place? WTF was going on when they made this decision making process?

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Bernie trolling at his best. Cheap attraction attempt in the aftermath of the silly season.

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MOWOG
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What riddles me is WHY on earth would the FIA forfeit so much power in the first place? WTF was going on when they made this decision making process?
Those are precisely the questions I have. :?:

Most of us know the heartache and destruction that followed when the teams took over CART. It's unlikely having the teams running F1 is going to have a happier ending. :cry:
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Blanchimont
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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So, if any FIA guy is secretly reading this, forward it to the strategy group, please. 8)

New engine regulations for 2016:

- fuel to use is standard fuel that can be bought at the local gas station(like Aral Ultimate or Shell V-Power in Germany with octance numbers of ~100) --> road relevance and marketing possibilities :mrgreen: :twisted:
- max fuel flow that results in a power output of the ICE of 800hp (~125 kg/h)
- energy recovery and turbos are possible, but not mandatory
- power of the MGUK in generator mode is unlimited, in motor mode max 200hp
- power of the MGUH in generator mode is max 60hp(this will increase the sound volume), unlimited in motor mode(drive the turbo)
- engine layout and number of cylinders is completely free
- take the current restrictions on materials allowed for the engine

Anything to add?
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

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Hail22
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Bernie trolling at his best. Cheap attraction attempt in the aftermath of the silly season.
He's garnering interest from the public, if he sees an upward trend / liking to the idea ergo #hastage growth of the v10 era returning, then the CVC will see it as another cash injection scheme.

Will it work? I have no idea, it depends on several key players who have influence in the CVC and I'll only name one:

Peter Brabeck-Letmathe
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turbof1
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Blanchimont wrote:So, if any FIA guy is secretly reading this, forward it to the strategy group, please. 8)

New engine regulations for 2016:

- fuel to use is standard fuel that can be bought at the local gas station(like Aral Ultimate or Shell V-Power in Germany with octance numbers of ~100) --> road relevance and marketing possibilities :mrgreen: :twisted:
- max fuel flow that results in a power output of the ICE of 800hp (~125 kg/h)
- energy recovery and turbos are possible, but not mandatory
- power of the MGUK in generator mode is unlimited, in motor mode max 200hp
- power of the MGUH in generator mode is max 60hp(this will increase the sound volume), unlimited in motor mode(drive the turbo)
- engine layout and number of cylinders is completely free
- take the current restrictions on materials allowed for the engine

Anything to add?
Yeah that got a fat +1 from me. I'd assume you were thinking about WEC didn't you :P.
#AeroFrodo

toraabe
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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This just makes no sense. Why go back to technology that was state of the art 10 years ago ? Same with the V8. Basically the same engines as the v10, just with two cylinders less. It's then better to increase the fuel flow and unlimit the hybrid package.

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MOWOG
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Hang on. Let's not turn this into a "How I would fix F1" thread, as much fun as that might be.

Who sold what? Why? And who is driving the train? I follow F1 pretty faithfully and I know nothing about the FIA selling any "rights" to FOM or anyone else.

Who knows more about this and can explain it so ordinary dolts like me can understand it? :?:
Some men go crazy; some men go slow. Some men go just where they want; some men never go.

Twaddle
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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Bernie may like the idea of having V10s back, but I doubt that was the main purpose of this announcement. To me it reads like a 'warning shot accross the bows' for the teams while also providing the side benefits of a bunch of free press and a chance to get a feel for the fan position on the current engines is now that we've had a full season.

Blanchimont
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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MOWOG wrote:...and I know nothing about the FIA selling any "rights" to FOM or anyone else.
I always had the impression/understanding that the working groups of F1 can only suggest what should be changed in the regulations and it still is the FIA World Council which has the right to actually change them.

Fun fact: In December ( http://www.fia.com/news/world-motor-spo ... -2014-doha ) for example, the minimum weight was raised once again from 701 to 702 kg #-o
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

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turbof1
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Re: Return Of The Mighty V-10?

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MOWOG wrote:Hang on. Let's not turn this into a "How I would fix F1" thread, as much fun as that might be.

Who sold what? Why? And who is driving the train? I follow F1 pretty faithfully and I know nothing about the FIA selling any "rights" to FOM or anyone else.

Who knows more about this and can explain it so ordinary dolts like me can understand it? :?:
First of all I need to say we'll probably never get any official numbers. Everything takes place within the concorde agreement, an agreement between the fom, fia a and the teams.

Now, what the fia probably did was that in return of receiving 40 million a year, they agreed that the rules be decided by the strategic group. The fia has 6 votes, the top 6 teams seating in the strategy group each have 1 vote and the fom has 6 votes. Previously the case was that the fia only had solely authority over the rules. Unless unanimous veto from all the teams, they could push through whatever they want. In theory of course, 2009 was a case where although the teams weren't an unanimous block, the majority threatened to leave the sport if the fia pushed through its plans.

But the point is that the fia had the sole authority about it, formally. Now the new concorde agreement, the one the fia agreed to, reduced that authority to just a 33% vote. The fom has the same power, 33% and the top 6 team together also 33%. That makes that 4 teams and the fom is enough to make the fia regulatory wise redundant.

Know that the fom is the financial part of the sport. They can whatever they want with the sport now, as long as they bring enough money to the table to convince atleast 4 teams, or the fia. In orders while this might seem a fair deal, it gave the fom full control over the sport.

Basically they push through new engine regulations, they need to either convince the fia or 4 out of 6 teams. However, this might be an issue since 3 out the 6 teams are mercedes customers, plus Honda came back to the sport specifically for these engines, so they'll vote against a move to v10's. Ferrari and Redbull will vote in favour probably. Mercedes will definitely vote against it. Williams and Force India might be influenced though if the price is high enough. Or, the fom disregards the teams altogether and just takes a good offer to the fia. Since the fia basically sold sole authority for 40million, it isn't unthinkable they will agree with such a move.

Note that this isn't a work group. This is effectively a decision making group. A work group studies a part of the sport and presents its findings and advice to the strategic group. The only thing after that is the wmsc, which can rectify the changes to the regulations or deny them, but can't make alterations themselves or propose rules out of their own.

Blanchimont, the wmsc is not a fia organ. The fia president has a position in it, but that's it. It's independent from the fia: http://www.fia.com/about-fia/governance ... rt-council. It has ties with the fia, but I don't think enough to influence it. And I'm sure they have no power to change rules, only to either accept or reject changes. They can however for instance reject calenders to make a statement.
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